Author Topic: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...  (Read 26430 times)

Offline Cultist of Sooty

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2012, 07:30:08 PM »
Hence... John Blanche is old hat ;)
Hats were better in the old days.

Offline Scutatus

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2012, 01:23:11 AM »
Wow.  :shock: Well this thread certainly took off didn't it?

Who knew Boars could be so controversial? ( I did actually, I hate the idea too). If there is any consolation, it is worth remembering that quite a lot of the GW LOTR range never featured in the books, or even in Peter Jackson's trilogy, so just because GW release, say, Dwarven Boar Riders, it doesn't automatically mean they are in the films. So fingers crossed! GW have their LOTR and WOTR tabletop wargames to support and keep profitable, so if they do actually exist, I suspect that is what the Boar riders are for - to give the Dwarven Army lists their own "Cavalry". Terribly un-Dwarvish, certainly not Tolkien, but GW are a law upon themselves..

The Boar controversy demonstrates most admirably why I so love Kev's interpretation. Kev's dwarves are spot on, the very mirror image of Tolkien's description of them. No really, I'm not exagerating: read the description of the Iron Hills dwarves Tolkien gives us in The Hobbit, in the Chapter entitled "The Clouds Burst," as Dain arrives with the dwarven host - then look at Kev's "Norman" dwarves, specifically the multi packs. Kev's dwarves could have stepped right out of the pages - barring the fact there are no mattocks (hint hint).

Speaking of which, how are they coming Kev? It's October; a certain expected Unexpected Journey is but nine weeks away now... tick tock. Are the mattock warriors of the Iron Hills on the horizon yet?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 01:31:02 AM by Scutatus »
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Offline No Head Ned

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2012, 01:53:00 PM »
The Boar controversy demonstrates most admirably why I so love Kev's interpretation. Kev's dwarves are spot on, the very mirror image of Tolkien's description of them.
Ironic then, that Mr. white has given the official Hasslefree seal of approval to dwarf boar riders:

QUOTE:
"Official HF policy dictates that Dwarven boar riders are a fabuloso idea. Deviance from this stance indicates a need for reprogramming. Please insert USB cable in to ear and hold ctrlaltdel until further notice. Thank you."

Terribly un-Dwarvish, certainly not Tolkien
I have never understood this attitude that "you can't have dwarf cavalry, 'cos dwarfs don't do that" It's fantasy. Imaginary. Fictitious. NOT REAL. Lighten up, have some fun and let your imaginations run riot! (Those of you who have not scrambled your brains with CtrlAltDel) Yes, GW are a law unto themselves. We should ALL be laws unto ourselves. Who says just 'cos Tolkein didn't do it, no one else can? I think I'm going to go and sculpt some dwarf cavalry. On giant badgers.

Offline Scutatus

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2012, 05:09:05 PM »
No head Ned, perhaps you need to put your head back on, because the concept of canon seems to have flown right over it. Let me spell it out for you:

Games Workshop make two fantasy ranges: one for their wargame Warhammer, the other on Licence for their Lord of the Rings/War of the Ring wargame. They can do whatever the hell they want with Warhammer - if they want dwarven Boar riders then fine, the sky's the limit One's imagination - or at least GW's imagination - indeed has no bounds but for those they wish to establish themselves.

But their LOTR range is another matter. Although he did leave gaps, Tolkien went to a lot of trouble to develop his setting in immense detail. He spent literally decades writings thousands of pages of history, culture, languages, adventures, tragedies, wars and battles, all accounted and there for us to reference. In none of these - NONE of these, not once in three ages of history, does he ever mention dwarven boar riders! In Middle-earth, dwarves have been known to ride a pony - or even a horse, but even then only for travelling. In battle they are allways dismounted. Always. Tolkien never even hints that dwarves use cavalry iof any kind in battle. Ever. Every account is an infantry battle with no suggestion that dwarves even consider fighting mounted.  In short, according to Tolkien, dwarves do NOT ride Boars in Middle-earth.

If you are going to use a setting it is important to retain that setting. Middle-earth has a very particular feel, it has very particular rules and limitations. Having been spoilt with all the other fantasy genres where almost anything does go it is easy to forget that Middle-earth, for all of it's fantasy setting, kept thiings in very definate boundaries. At the end of the Third Age for instance, during the War of the Ring, the time of man is approaching and things like demons, dragons and magic are rare bygone relics of a previous age. The few examples we see - Durin's Bane, Smaug, the Istari, Sting, are actually the extreme exceptions, rather than the norm. Even the elves and dwarves are on the way out, past their time of power and glory - the dwarves in particular have been expelled from one home after another, have lost over half of their fighting strength in the last couple of centuries and in the War of the Ring can barely even hold Erebor when the Easterlings attack, never mind do anything else. Their battle for survival becomes a seige, that is only lifted after Sauron is destroyed and his forces lose heart. Which is to say, in Middle-earth it is NOT anything goes. If you want the freedom to do or invent anything you want you really should stick to the likes of Warhammer, Dungeons and Dragons, World of Warcraft or any of the other countless other creations that Tolkien's Middle-earth largely inspired. Anywhere else, Dwarven Boar riders wouldn't be any big deal at all.  In Middle-earth, it is. Because there weren't any.

Do you get it now?

And incidentally, I think Kev was being diplomatic and light hearted when he gave "the nod of approval". Perhaps he just didn't want the discussion to get out of hand and develop into something acrimonious, so tried to diffuse the situation?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 05:16:19 PM by Scutatus »
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Offline Gangrel

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2012, 05:12:44 PM »
I couldn't agree more, Scutatus. In fact even the 'odder' additions to GW LotR range tend to have some grounding in Tolkien's writing, even if only a passing mention in the Christopher Tolkien-compiled later volumes.
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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2012, 06:12:10 PM »
Using a setting is all about following it to the letter  :lmao:.

Take Orks for example. You look one way and you have them speeding around on motorbikes shouting "red 'uns go faster!" but if you look the other way, there are Orks with blue face-paint, plundering the battlefield. Not far away, there are Orks pretending to be humans; all dressed up in combats and marching around a parade square  :scratchhead:.

Then there are Elves... some live in the woods, others live in silver cities and then there are others who are dark, depraved individuals who are evil and nasty.

Let's look at Hobbits... depending where they come from, they may be tall, short, fat, skinny, adventuring or stay at home types... all from the same setting.

Men folk are a wide-spread lot from Mordor through to the Shire, they are everywhere... some are simple folk, some are magicians, others are warriors who ride horses.

Who is to say that in the Tolkein setting, there are lands that he had yet to visit? Maybe, he focused on certain clans of dwarfs and didn't feel the need to go any further  :tears: .

I know that boar-riding Dwarfs weren't in Tolkein's stuff but saying that they 'aren't canon' is a bit like saying that all Germans drive a VW :salute: .

I think that there is an awful lot of over-thinking going on here and the point is, if it is in the rules of the game and the miniatures are good, who really minds a bit of poetic license ;)?

I'll be chuffed if there are boar riding Dwarfs because they would be the perfect size to base Grymn cavalry on. It makes no difference which license it comes from, as long as the miniatures are good  :yup: .
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:13:54 PM by Inso »
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Offline No Head Ned

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2012, 08:53:46 PM »
No head Ned, perhaps you need to put your head back on, because the concept of canon seems to have flown right over it. Let me spell it out for you
I've tried superglue, gaffer tape, airfix, everything. Nothing seems to work.

Yes, I get it. I got it the first time. Just 'cos I don't share your opinion, does not mean I don't understand it. I even agree, up to a point. If you are going to produce a game based on a particular setting, you should stay (reasonably) true to that setting.
What I was referring to was that an awful lot of people I have met in this hobby seem to have this tendency to take it all so darn seriously. I suggested we all might want to relax & lighten up, that worrying about what is and is not "canon" is not really important, it's all just pretend. And people respond by quoting reams of Tolkien at me, and I get my head knocked off by the "canon" ball. Obviously, I've stepped on a nerve here, so: sorry about that. Yes, we should keep it friendly & not be acrimonious, & I'm sorry if my comments came out sounding that way.
I think that there is an awful lot of over-thinking going on here and the point is, if it is in the rules of the game and the miniatures are good, who really minds a bit of poetic license ;)?
My point, exactly.
the elves and dwarves are on the way out, past their time of power and glory - the dwarves in particular have been expelled from one home after another, have lost over half of their fighting strength in the last couple of centuries and in the War of the Ring can barely even hold Erebor when the Easterlings attack
Well, maybe if they had been using cavalry, they wouldn't have got into such a fix. :P

Offline beefcake

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2012, 09:00:20 PM »
Simply, if you don't like it don't buy it.
I don't like the idea of Dwarfs riding boars so I wouldn't go near them. I may buy them as mounts for something else entirely different if they are good sculpts but all dwarfiness would be gotten rid of.
Others will love them, Tolkein may have even liked them!

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »
Anybody want to sculpt me that Badger............ :lol:
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Offline Gangrel

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2012, 10:34:00 PM »
Hmmm. I still don't see the point of paying the big bucks for a licence and then making generic Warhammer-esque fantasy figures. 
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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2012, 07:08:52 AM »
 
Anybody want to sculpt me that Badger............ :lol:
Mantic games... Next year. Close enough to a badger anyway

Offline Scutatus

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2012, 05:48:00 PM »
Quote
I've tried superglue, gaffer tape, airfix, everything. Nothing seems to work.

No Ned Head, you made me laugh; you're alright. :D

Sorry if you felt like I came down on you too heavily. I didn't mean to upset anyone or cause offence. Tolkien's Middle-earth is my favourite place of refuge and escapism from the real world. I read Tolkien's The Hobbit and LOTR (including the appendixes) every year and the Silmarilion regularly, albeit slightly less often. Tolkien's works mean a lot to me and perhaps, sometimes, I can be a little too over zealous with my opinion in all things Middle-earth. My apologies.


Quote
Well, maybe if they had been using cavalry, they wouldn't have got into such a fix

I realise you were kind of joking, with tongue in cheek, but I cannot resist the urge to say
a) The battle for Erebor became a siege - cavalry don't tend to get used much in sieges. ;)
and
b) Cavalry aren't everything. Infantry are quite capable of checking cavalry so long as they hold firm in formation and have their flanks protected in some way. Horses, no matter how well trained, are not going to plough into a solid deep wall of shields and/or pointy sticks that do not break before them. The Spartans, the Romans, the pike phalanxes of antiquity and 16th/17th centuries - not to mention the Napoleonic squares and the germanic Shieldwalls, all have demonstrated time and again that it is not the horse that matters most, but discipline and drill. The cavalry charge relies primarily on pyschological warfare; if the infantry line holds, the cavalry charge largely peters out impotently. If however the line breaks, well then the cavalry have their glory. To use an example more applicable to the dwarves of Middle-earth, the Saxon shieldwall at Hastings held against the Normans for hour after hour and looked set to check William the bastard quite effectively. It was only when the Normans were erroneously believed to be routing, when the Saxons broke formation to pursue - that they were promptly ridden down. But had the Norman ruse failed, had the shieldwall continued to hold firm as it had all day, British history would have been very different. Interestingly, Tolkien appears to favour the Shieldwall, probably because it reflects the "Dark Ages" feel that he was trying to portray. In true Dark Age style it crops up as the Free Peoples primary tactic time and again - The last stand at the Black Gates is a prime example. The dwarves for their part are fine infantryman and apparently cope quite well without cavalry of their own. ;)
 
Quote
Take Orks for example....

...Who is to say that in the Tolkein setting, there are lands that he had yet to visit? Maybe, he focused on certain clans of dwarfs and didn't feel the need to go any further   .

I know that boar-riding Dwarfs weren't in Tolkein's stuff but saying that they 'aren't canon' is a bit like saying that all Germans drive a VW 


Inso, you seem to be confusing the Orks of GW's Warhammer and Warhammer 40k with the orcs/goblins of Tolkiens' Middle-earth - that's possibly a mistake, although if you are simply using those as an example of possible variety in a race then fair enough. To conceed a point, there were indeed Dwarven clans in Middle-earth that travelled further east and were never heard of again; Tolkien tells us no more about them and they could well have been very different in character from those in the books  - but none of those are the dwarves people will be playing. Most if not all of the dwarves we see in Tolkien's tales are the Longbeards descended from Durin the Deathless. and those are the ones people will be fielding. And those dwarves did not have boar riders.

Using one's imagination creatively is fine, so long as one also respects the setting, knows where the boundaries are and acknowledges what is and isn't appropriate. Once you start down the path of ignoring those boundaries you are liable to open an awful can of worms. Without restraint, with just the limits of one's imagination, where would it end? Today, dwarven boar riders, tomorrow, Kung- Fu Pandas! Middle-earth has a distinctive unique character and flavour, and I for one would rather like miniature ranges to retain that character. Minature makers have to know where to draw the line. To use GW's example, yes, they have been very creative in their LOTR line, but for the most part they have built upon things that Tolkien has described or hinted at and got it more or less right. I don't mind the "Dweller in the Dark" for example,  because Tolkien tells us that the Balrogs were not the only Maiar to be corrupted by Morgoth (and it's rather Balrog like anyway). Gulhavar is another example of this - or perhaps it is GW's take on Vampires, which again Tolkien mentions. For the same reason I don't mind GW doing Werewolves or Black shields from Gundabad, because Tolkien gives us accounts of Werewolves in action and tells us of the goblins of Gundabad, albeit without much detail. So it goes on.

But dwarven boar riders - nope nopity nope no hint of any such thing. That crosses the line and takes us down a road of complete non-Tolkien flights of fancy that dilutes Middle-earth's distinctiveness. It's not quite as simple as just not buying the boar riders or ignoring them, because the more creations there are like the boar riders the less actual bonafide Tolkienesque minatures get made, and the more the figure range becomes a "generic fantasy" range, losing it's unique Middle-earth character. GW and everyone else already make generic fantasy ranges. It should not be much to ask for the the LOTR/ Middle-earth range to feel like, well, Middle-earth. Dwarven Boar riders don't and reflect the growth of a dangerous trend for the range.

But that's just my opinion. You are all of course, entitled to yours too. :D
And I think, for the sake of civility and well being for all, I should stop there and say no more about Boar Riders. Best wishes to each and everyone of you. No hard feelings intended.
:)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 05:59:11 PM by Scutatus »
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Offline No Head Ned

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2012, 07:50:28 PM »
No offence taken.  :bighug:

The battle for Erebor became a siege - cavalry don't tend to get used much in sieges. ;)

Ah, but badgers are burrowing animals...  :D
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 07:53:05 PM by No Head Ned »

Offline Inso

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2012, 08:13:32 PM »
@Scutatus: I was just picking from various settings. The point I was making in a long winded fashion is that no matter what setting is chosen, it would be impossible to say 'that can't happen' because people are as different as leaves on a tree... unless the world is filled with non-sentient clones of course :D

But as you say, it is all opinions and one of the reason I enjoy the general sci-fi genre is that I can make it up as I go along :)... no limits... no restrictions... pure imaginative freedom :D

That said... the Dwarves that live in the mine near to the Moot Game farm, just down from Hobbiton are often seen riding boars purchased from the Hobbits... It is just that Tolkein wasn't there to see it :D
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Offline Scutatus

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2012, 08:43:16 PM »
:lol:

Cheeky. :D
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2012, 08:45:22 PM »
Quote
a) The battle for Erebor became a siege - cavalry don't tend to get used much in sieges.

They get used as food!

As to dwarf cavalry. No. Not in my head. ... Unless they are grenadier ursine cavalry. Don't ask why, it's a nostalgia thing.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:45:59 PM by Brandlin »
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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2012, 01:30:54 PM »
And incidentally, I think Kev was being diplomatic and light hearted when he gave "the nod of approval". Perhaps he just didn't want the discussion to get out of hand and develop into something acrimonious, so tried to diffuse the situation?[/color]

Nope. I think Dwarven Boar cavalry is an excellent idea. In fact I started a few riders and a mount about seven years ago.
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Offline No Head Ned

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2012, 04:15:43 PM »
And I thought I was a slow sculptor... :whistle:
So, how are those mattocks coming on? :pokey

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2012, 04:38:03 PM »
Slowly :D
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Offline No Head Ned

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2012, 02:46:16 PM »
They'd be faster if they had cavalry.  :whistle:

Offline Andrew

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2013, 09:02:00 PM »
I came to Hassle Free because of the great survivor/zombie fighter miniatures.

In the process I bumped into their WONDERFUL line of (as others have described here) Norman style dwarves.  I agree with all the posters above about them being very Tolkien.

Tolkien dwarves do not ONLY use axes and hammers, they have swords and spears.  Tolkien dwarves don't have viking helmets (and for that matter real vikings didn't have stereotypical viking helmets either).  Tolkien dwarves didn't ride boars.  They road ponies.

Note that when some people say pony they think shetland ponies.  Ponies com in all sorts of sizes, including those just a little bit smaller than horses.  Ponies are thick legged and very rugged.  A mount that is a hand shorter than a human's mount would be great for a dwarf.  I always imagine dwarf ponies to be like these Icelandic Ponies

http://s3.hubimg.com/u/3958686_f520.jpg

Leave the horn wearing, beard to your boots, drinking with one hand fighting with the other, boar riding to Games Workshop.

Now, if I was designing a fantasy world my dwarves would have domesticated big horn sheep to use as mounts and mountain goats to use as pack animals...and Elves would ride elk.  I think boar riding is stupid.  Look at the average size of a horse and a human.  Then look at a hog.  Then look at a hog's short legs.  Look here at 'Squeeky' the winner of the Minnesota Biggest Boar contest weighing in at 1240 pounds

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/08/22/20080822_squeeky_33.jpg

Even a dwarf isn't going to make an effective mount out of that...let alone one a third that size

You know what hogs like this really do all day?

this.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Davydd_2006/Minnesota%20State%20Fair/LargestBoar.jpg


No, dwarves belong on their two feet when fighting.  If they have to travel from spot to spot ponies are handy.  You might have a few horses in the army simply for scouts and messengers, but no dwarf cavalry fits in with Tolkien, certainly not on pigs.

(but to be fair, bare breasted mohawk wearing female dwarves weilding axes don't appear in Tolkien either...but you guys had Hasslefree make a WONDERFUL miniature of that)

Here's another thing.  Cavalry being fast, well, not so much.  Sure, cavalry make great scouts, and on the battlefield can move quickly from point A to point B.  However, as far as moving an ARMY from battlefield A to battlefield B, cavalry isn't any faster than infantry, and in many cases is LESS fast, because horses can be ridden,  but not ridden fast, not all day, require wagons of food,  need to be rubbed down and groomed, etc etc.  The only way a mounted army moves fast is if each rider has multiple mounts to switch to.  It's what the cowboys did when working cattle, keeping roughly 6 mounts per cowboy in the Remuda.  The Mongol Horde they did the same thing.

Dwarven armies in Tolkien, they'd be the type to force-march someplace, and get there fast, then form some nice shield walls with archers and crossbowmen behind.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 09:08:54 PM by Andrew »

Offline Balgin Stondraeg

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2013, 10:34:49 PM »
They road ponies.

And not very comfortably or very often either.
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Offline Andrew

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Re: The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are coming...
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2013, 03:04:28 AM »
They road ponies.

And not very comfortably or very often either.

ha ha ha.  My reliance on spellchecker fails again!