Author Topic: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION  (Read 289918 times)

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #550 on: September 17, 2013, 07:56:37 PM »
Whatever way you look at it, Artemis' proposed solution is the one that A) gets the whole thing wrapped up before we start hitting each other with putty shapers and B) gives everyone something for their efforts.

Frankly that sounds like the best outcome to me. I entered to see something I'd made cast in metal like a real pr0-feshunal, but at this point I'd be happy just having the original back.

Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #551 on: September 17, 2013, 08:11:00 PM »
I can understand that people have differing opinions and I can also understand why people may be disappointed about not getting a copy of their sculpt in metal guaranteed (I love it when I get my sculpts cast... anyone who says they don't is a liar!)... but seeing as there have been so many problems with the 'greens', the massive time delay and the huge take up, a decent compromise has been suggested.

The competition helped many people 'give it a go' and if the worst happens and their sculpts get returned, at least they still have their green... which is something to be proud of... and is in the 'spirit' of what the competition originally set out to do (get people sculpting).

It has been a year now... it has dragged on... and I for one will be glad to see a voting thread.

I think it would be a real shame to introduce any risk of further delay by arguing about minutiae, hence I'm all for just letting things take their course.

The thing about the WWW is that written text is easily misinterpreted. I'm not angry in anyway, I just can't see the logic in risking slowing down a process further when a decent way forward has been introduced.

There will be no losers. Everyone will get their sculpt back in either original form or in metal (if they win). They will also get extra miniatures to assuage their disappointment if they don't get a metal version of their work... I really can't see where the problem is. 

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Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #552 on: September 17, 2013, 08:11:55 PM »
I think how well this is handled really will come down to the detail and that depends on the intention behind it. I'll start off with noting that the quid pro quo was that Hasslefree offered metal castings of their entries to all entrants whose sculptures were castable, in return for a load of sculptures that they could sell if good enough and the potential that also any uncastable entries they had the option to spend a bit of effort to make castable and saleable too if they wished.

Just a quick note of clarification, and again there is zero insult intended to anyone who entered or ever will enter a sculpting competition of any kind, but that really isn't the quid pro quo of these kinds of contests. The odds of an entry ever being good enough to pay for the costs of the competition itself are incredibly low unless either an unknown sculpts his arse off out of nowhere or for some reason a professional sculptor decides to enter for a laugh. There are some excellent entries this time around, as there almost always are in any good sculpting contest, but with the best will in the world it's unlikely any of them will be commercially viable enough to cover the costs of a large contest like this.

These contests are primarily for fun and as a way to encourage people to try sculpting or converting etc. They are in no way moneymakers, trust me.

(To be totally upfront they are also, when not delayed a year *cough*, good advertising, but even that doesn't make a sculpting contest a financial asset :) )

If you were overwhelmed by the numbers and there isn't capacity to cast all the readily-castable entries without putting the company in jeopardy:
Fair enough. You can't do what you can't do! In that case the winning entries plus a few selected extras (however they are selected) sounds like a great consolation prize.

If you could cast all the castable entries, but would feel bad for the people whose entries were uncastable:
That's a very noble sentiment. If the non-castable entries seem commercially-viable, these ought to be the ones that Hasslefree has the option to work on because it'd hopefully be worth it. If they're not viable and don't get fixed, people really oughtn't get upset about it. If you decide that you don't want any potential upset though (at the expense of breaking your word and not casting other people's castable entries as promised), this is coming from a nice place, but it's a bit rough on the one's who you are letting down when you could fulfil the deal.

If the number of "selected" entries, or ones that are otherwise used for sale by Hasslefree at some point, approaches the number of potentially-castable ones, so they're no longer really the "consolation prize" mentioned in the first case:
This would be really uncool. You'd be asking permission to swap some people's promised space in the mould for a group of other people's entries based on a new set of criteria. Optimistically, because you'd decided too late that they were better criteria. Cynically, because these would be more profitable in the long run. There is a risk in this last case that Hasslefree might seem like taking the good bits of the original deal (some cool minis, dibs on spending a bit of time on fixing up some potentially cool ones) without fulfilling the other side of the bargain.

I hope it's the first case, I would be somewhat surprised if it turned out to be the last case, but Artemis' last post* worries me slightly.

Of course, this is all based on the premise of an entrant that would rather have their own model that a winner model or a "selected" one. If that's not the case and they'd rather someone else's, no worries, everyone wins! :D

* Edit: one before last post. He got in before me, sneaky ninja!  :P

I am the world's fattest ninja btw.

But anyway, yeah you really need to remove anything to do with money from the equation. The only part where things become financially disastrous for us is if we were to take away a large chunk of Kev's sculpting time to fix a large number of entries. Other than that, which I already mentioned, there's no hidden financial agenda.

In fact the largest single cost incurred to us in all of this will probably be to simply post 100 people a bunch of minis, which is happening regardless of whatever solution we end up going with. About 50 entries are international and 50 are UK so that's well over 250 in postal costs alone. Not including the 100 spins of the winning mould to give everyone their prize etc. That'll be hundreds more pounds. While moulding is expensive it won't come close to those costs which are already incurred.

I've tried to be as upfront as possible with the resoning behind the new discussion, there's no hidden agenda I assure you, financial or otherwise. The contest didn't scale up well due to the wording and now we're in a position where it's almost certain that one group of people will be, at least slightly, disappointed. We're trying to work out what's fairest to everyone and I've asked for opinions on that before we make a final decision. Nothing is final until moulds are made and entries are posted back etc.

If enough of tne castable but non-winning entries are really that upset about it and free minis etc. don't appease them then I will look into holding up our original end of the bargain, get them a cast mini and deal with the 60 miffed people who don't get one. It is what we originally wrote after all. The very first thing I said was that we were 'offering' a new possibility. On the other hand if it's like 3 people I have to balance those 3 against the rest and incur their wrath instead. Ultimately I'm collecting opinions so that I can take the least abuse possible ;)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:13:15 PM by Artemis Black »

Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #553 on: September 17, 2013, 08:15:19 PM »

Oh, and none of this duscussion is holding anything up. That's why I'm doing the typing while Jenn is finishing the photography and organising a poll etc. So no worries on that front :)

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #554 on: September 17, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »
Can you ask her to photograph mine with vaseline on the lens so they suck less?


btw I'm perfectly happy to pay the postage on whatever is sent to me, be it my own sculpts or metal casts of them or other peoples. I dunno how many people feel the same but yeah. Few quid to everyone is nothing, few quid FOR everyone is a lot.

Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #555 on: September 17, 2013, 09:25:25 PM »
Can you ask her to photograph mine with vaseline on the lens so they suck less?


btw I'm perfectly happy to pay the postage on whatever is sent to me, be it my own sculpts or metal casts of them or other peoples. I dunno how many people feel the same but yeah. Few quid to everyone is nothing, few quid FOR everyone is a lot.

*grin* I know it was intended as helpful but I'm really not in the habit of saying one thing and meaning another. It wasn't a complaint about the costs of he postage etc. we knew those going in. It was simply a bit of extra information to highlight that the issues here, other than Kev's time, are not financially based.

(Of course if anyone is making or planning to make an order around delivery time then by all means let us know so we can include your freebies with it instead of unnecessarilly sending two parcels within a few days of each other :) In fact we might even offer a code to incenitivise doing just that now that it's been brought to my mind, will think about that)

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #556 on: September 17, 2013, 09:27:13 PM »
<-- gets credit

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #557 on: September 18, 2013, 12:05:12 AM »
I really can't see where the problem is.

Which in no way means your view is any more right or wrong than anyone elses.  If people feel aggrieved, they have every right to, in the same way that you don't feel aggrieved.  People should be allowed to feel how they feel, even if you can't understand why they feel that way.

It's not a comment on the competition (I agree with the comment about it being like the Dragon, it is, same root issue), and everyone involved is trying to and just has to make the best of it.  But declaring you can't see where the problem is, with the unstated comment, and hence there isn't one, just dismisses how other people feel.

Offline Gangrel

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #558 on: September 18, 2013, 12:33:34 AM »
(Of course if anyone is making or planning to make an order around delivery time then by all means let us know so we can include your freebies with it instead of unnecessarilly sending two parcels within a few days of each other :) In fact we might even offer a code to incenitivise doing just that now that it's been brought to my mind, will think about that)

If it helps save two lots of postage and a little work, I could always pick our stuff up on my way home from work one evening.

Best,
Mike
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Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #559 on: September 18, 2013, 01:25:09 AM »

(I agree with the comment about it being like the Dragon, it is, same root issue),

And what root issue would that be? Because for the life of me I can't think of a single similarity.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:03:06 AM by Artemis Black »

Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #560 on: September 18, 2013, 07:42:42 AM »
I really can't see where the problem is.

Which in no way means your view is any more right or wrong than anyone elses.  If people feel aggrieved, they have every right to, in the same way that you don't feel aggrieved.  People should be allowed to feel how they feel, even if you can't understand why they feel that way.

It's not a comment on the competition (I agree with the comment about it being like the Dragon, it is, same root issue), and everyone involved is trying to and just has to make the best of it.  But declaring you can't see where the problem is, with the unstated comment, and hence there isn't one, just dismisses how other people feel.

It doesn't dismiss how other people feel, it is simply me stating my opinion just the same as everyone else. Even if it was me dismissing other people, what does it matter? I have no affiliation with the competition and I can be ignored just the same as everyone else.

I suppose 'the root cause of the dragon' was the massive take-up / buy in? Because that is the only similarity I can see.

Yes if people want to, they have a right to feel aggrieved and they can moan about it but it isn't going to change anything... it just has the potential to slow things down and after all this time, wouldn't it just be nice to get some sort of return on the effort you, or anyone else put in?

As I said before, if people are so keen to get their work cast and they don't win, then there are other avenues to follow. I have had my work cast by other people and it is great... but you just have to do a bit of searching and tailor your stuff a bit.

Either way, I will enjoy finding out what gets cast and what doesn't... if mine doesn't, I can live with it because I'll get the green and I can correct it/improve it before I paint it ;).

Ire over a miniature sculpting competition just isn't worth it...

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Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #561 on: September 18, 2013, 08:51:07 AM »
Time for Axioms...

'Failing to plan, is planning to fail'... however, 'No plan ever survived a battle' and this leads to 'Flexibility/adaptability is the key to victory.'

In light of this...

There was a good plan, it didn't survive the battle but through flexibility an alternative was found and there is likely to be a good outcome.

At the end of the day, we all get shiny toys for a minimum outlay (apart from time, for some, just postage because there were free armatures/putty if you wanted it). Isn't that a good thing?

I thought it was a good thing and I still do. Maybe I just see the good in things... Maybe I'm just over optimistic/positive? Maybe I just look at the news and think just how insignificant a hobby competition is when compared to what is happening around the world?

... Maybe I should just get on board and switch to negative Inso... put my velociraptor head on?

But when all is said and done, all my posts can be ignored just the same as anyone else's... and I'll still get some shiny toys to play with :D.

 :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

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Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #562 on: September 18, 2013, 09:07:48 AM »
Has something touched a nerve..?

Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #563 on: September 18, 2013, 09:53:40 AM »
Has something touched a nerve..?

What? No smilies?  :wink: (I was nearly ostracised for that in the past... :paranoid2:).

Nothing has touched a nerve  :lmao:

I just saw something good coming from something long over with (and almost forgotten...) and thought it was a bit odd that people were complaining about it. Poor old Artemis is trying his best to sort out the mess, after all.

I know you could say 'it was in the original rules' and 'they should honour the original statements' (which you have every right to do) but when someone is actually trying to make things better, it seems a bit needy... especially when we are talking about toy soldiers.

I could understand it if your house, livelyhood or reputation was at stake... but it is just toy soldiers... and it isn't as if you aren't getting your work back in one form or other so you get to hold it on high and say 'I did that!'

Maybe I am just getting to a point in life where I don't view things like this as important... I have other things that take a higher priority.

Who knows? But no nerve has been touched :D.

Maybe, I just get disappointed with the way people are sometimes... including myself?


 
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Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #564 on: September 18, 2013, 10:04:49 AM »
No smilies available in a quick reply :'(

Offline Dethkor

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #565 on: September 18, 2013, 12:09:47 PM »

(I agree with the comment about it being like the Dragon, it is, same root issue),

And what root issue would that be? Because for the life of me I can't think of a single similarity.

I was merely saying that both beasts evolved to be more than was originally conceived by their creators.  If I remember correctly Mr. Foster had quite a time taming the dragon, and now Mr. Black and Co. are wrestling with this competition.  I wasn't commenting on anyone's ability to do their job/run a business etc; both small, independent companies go above and beyond for their costumers/fans which can't be easy when your running the show yourself and or raising a family.

I didn't enter the competition to win, what I wanted mostly was to have a mini I'd made in the store, like some of you have with the Dress-a-Kev, if that doesn't happen I'll be disappointed, but I'm not gonna loss any sleep over it. 
I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this competition, and I realize the position they're in is sticky, but my faith in them is unshaken.

Again, best of luck to everyone living in interesting times!

Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #566 on: September 18, 2013, 01:44:03 PM »

(I agree with the comment about it being like the Dragon, it is, same root issue),

And what root issue would that be? Because for the life of me I can't think of a single similarity.

I was merely saying that both beasts evolved to be more than was originally conceived by their creators.  If I remember correctly Mr. Foster had quite a time taming the dragon, and now Mr. Black and Co. are wrestling with this competition.  I wasn't commenting on anyone's ability to do their job/run a business etc; both small, independent companies go above and beyond for their costumers/fans which can't be easy when your running the show yourself and or raising a family.

I didn't enter the competition to win, what I wanted mostly was to have a mini I'd made in the store, like some of you have with the Dress-a-Kev, if that doesn't happen I'll be disappointed, but I'm not gonna loss any sleep over it. 
I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this competition, and I realize the position they're in is sticky, but my faith in them is unshaken.

Again, best of luck to everyone living in interesting times!

2 things, firstly, the first is just to point out that the Dragon thing has been going on for almost 5 'years', I've been talking about a small but sticky issue with this sculpting contest for almost 5 'days', I think comparing the two somewhat escalates our issue to about a gazillion times more than it is :)

Second, I read through the rules when Jenn and I took over the contest and I may be missing something somewhere but were people under the impression that 'all' castable entries were going in the shop? Was that said somewhere I have missed (quite possible, it's a big forum and there's facebook too)?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:03:18 PM by Artemis Black »

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #567 on: September 18, 2013, 02:01:32 PM »
I was of the understanding that all castable entries were going to be cast for their sculptor and would be eligible for winning the competition, nothing about going in the store.

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #568 on: September 18, 2013, 02:11:19 PM »
I was of the understanding that all castable entries were going to be cast for their sculptor and would be eligible for winning the competition, nothing about going in the store.

That was my understanding.

The ones that Kev liked would be the ones that went into the shop (if he chose to use them...)
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Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #569 on: September 18, 2013, 02:14:51 PM »

Ok, just checking I hadn't missed something else important there :)

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #570 on: September 18, 2013, 02:47:07 PM »
I jumped to the conclusion that if they were being cast that they would go up on the store as you have to cast the whole mould as many times as you want copies of the most popular mini on it. And it didnt make sence to cast a mini for one copy :)

I'm personally hoping that the brass tools will hold out long enough for me to order a set to be packed with my minis :D

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #571 on: September 18, 2013, 03:02:19 PM »
I jumped to the conclusion that if they were being cast that they would go up on the store as you have to cast the whole mould as many times as you want copies of the most popular mini on it. And it didnt make sence to cast a mini for one copy :)

I'm personally hoping that the brass tools will hold out long enough for me to order a set to be packed with my minis :D

A green going into a mould makes it a master mould. Those will be spun for prizes for entrants and a number of those masters will be taken out of the pile to create a production mould for any minis we add to the store.

(Barring any unearthed promises I have missed the likely outcome will be the winners and some other entries chosen by HF will be added to the same page as the Dress-a-Kevs and we'll change the categories name)

perceptionistruth

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #572 on: September 18, 2013, 11:41:05 PM »

(I agree with the comment about it being like the Dragon, it is, same root issue),

And what root issue would that be? Because for the life of me I can't think of a single similarity.

Underestimating total interest.

perceptionistruth

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #573 on: September 18, 2013, 11:44:28 PM »
It doesn't dismiss how other people feel, it is simply me stating my opinion just the same as everyone else. Even if it was me dismissing other people, what does it matter? I have no affiliation with the competition and I can be ignored just the same as everyone else.

In my personal view, your whole tone was dismissive.  I'll leave it there.

I suppose 'the root cause of the dragon' was the massive take-up / buy in? Because that is the only similarity I can see.

Yep.  Not a sin, not something to be complained about and I'm not, but an example of a small company doing something they wanted to, for good reasons, but being overwhelmed by the response.

Offline Internalclock

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #574 on: September 19, 2013, 07:14:54 AM »
I jumped to the conclusion that if they were being cast that they would go up on the store as you have to cast the whole mould as many times as you want copies of the most popular mini on it. And it didnt make sence to cast a mini for one copy :)

I'm personally hoping that the brass tools will hold out long enough for me to order a set to be packed with my minis :D

A green going into a mould makes it a master mould. Those will be spun for prizes for entrants and a number of those masters will be taken out of the pile to create a production mould for any minis we add to the store.

(Barring any unearthed promises I have missed the likely outcome will be the winners and some other entries chosen by HF will be added to the same page as the Dress-a-Kevs and we'll change the categories name)

Sounds fair to me :)