Author Topic: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION  (Read 299066 times)

Offline beefcake

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #525 on: September 13, 2013, 11:47:26 PM »
I think mine may be in the case of not being castable. Not too fussed either way. I would like them in metal but if its going to be extra work then obviously no. Getting copies of the winners sounds good, I thought that was always on the table though as part of entering the contest?

Offline Mabus

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #526 on: September 14, 2013, 12:08:10 AM »
It's been awhile for me too. Just saw this post on my FB feed. Permission granted as well.  :smile:

Hell, I don't even remember if I sent my miniatures out to you guys.  :erm:

Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #527 on: September 14, 2013, 02:58:31 PM »
I think mine may be in the case of not being castable. Not too fussed either way. I would like them in metal but if its going to be extra work then obviously no. Getting copies of the winners sounds good, I thought that was always on the table though as part of entering the contest?

Originally it was a copy of the winners of the 3 categories and your own casting. I'm suggesting as a make-up for a lot of people not getting their own casting that on top of the 3 winners you also get a selection of the other sculpts as selected by us.

I'ts unfortunately one of those things that had the competition run smothly would have been resolved fluidly as it came up and now we're just looking for the best scenario.

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #528 on: September 15, 2013, 03:32:05 PM »
Unforeseen stuff happens and, oddly enough, is often unforeseen. I'm fine with what you're proposing and, personally, know I'd much rather get mine back and be told they're uncastable than have them get smushed in a mould and be gone forever!

They're masterpieces even if they're also crap! :P


Selection of the sculpts selected by you, is that going to be for example, we choose 2-3 of the ones you cast, or you give us some random ones?

Offline Vargrz

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #529 on: September 16, 2013, 03:23:59 AM »
I am glad to hear such support for the solutions proposed.  The Hasslefree crew is such a great corner of the miniature industry!  Their great sculpts, fantastic service, and personal attention deserve to be recognized as unique!  In this case, the willingness to seek the opinion of their customers and contestants in itself is commendable!  Bravo!

Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #530 on: September 16, 2013, 04:03:35 AM »
Unforeseen stuff happens and, oddly enough, is often unforeseen. I'm fine with what you're proposing and, personally, know I'd much rather get mine back and be told they're uncastable than have them get smushed in a mould and be gone forever!

They're masterpieces even if they're also crap! :P


Selection of the sculpts selected by you, is that going to be for example, we choose 2-3 of the ones you cast, or you give us some random ones?

Yes, that is one of the concerns. It is distinctly possible that entries could go into the mould ok, break immediately in the vulcanising of the mould and all we're left with is a broken entry and a malformed mould. We'd rather reward entires in a different way that risk so many entries that way. It also has nothing to do with quality, quite a fewof the entries I would personally vote for aren't castable without alterations/fixes.

What I meant by selection by us is just the 'HF Choices' which will be in addition to the'Public Voted Winners'.

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #531 on: September 16, 2013, 07:59:26 AM »
Sounds good :P

So to clarify, winners will be picked from any and all entries now, regardless of their present castability?

Also, what are you doing out of bed at 4:35am?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:00:01 AM by PossumCraft »

Offline Gangrel

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #532 on: September 16, 2013, 12:22:59 PM »
OK, just my two penn'orth.

Firstly, I fully appreciate the situation HF are in with this, and I do think this is an elegant (and generous) solution. That said, with my petulant and whiney head on, if my sculpt (which I did attempt to keep as castable as possible) IS castable, but doesn't win anything (which it shouldn't; there are far better ones in the competition), then I have to admit I'd be disappointed not to get a metal copy. Still, I'll also concede that this isn't the end of the world and that there are bigger things in life to worry about. I'm not about to throw my Green Stuff out of the pram over this!

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Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #533 on: September 16, 2013, 12:29:51 PM »
Wondered, you could post a list of all the castable entries and let the people who made them choose between having a cast of their entry or the HF picks you were offering, but that may just mean an obnoxious amount of casting so I dunno if it's even possible. BUT! it would satisfy everyone, wouldn't it? :P

Offline Pleasurepain

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #534 on: September 17, 2013, 12:09:29 AM »
When you say "selected other miniatures" I'm not really sure whether you mean "the other ones we selected as being instantly castable" or "some other cool ones we like and might do some work on in order to cast up"?

I have to say that the reason I entered a sculpture was not with any delusions of winning the competition, but for the opportunity to get something I had made cast up in metal like a "proper mini".

I had been wondering whether something like this was coming though. Is the problem really the work needed to be nice and get everyone's up to scratch for them, or is it just too much work with all the entries to even cast them? That is to say, if you went through critically throwing out all the non-castable ones rather than trying to repair them or adjusting them for casting, would it still be a massive hassle? Or is it that you would find it too mean to cast some people's without putting in a lot of effort trying to make everyone's castable if possible?

I don't think anyone can have any complaints if you don't try and fix their sculptures if they're uncastable as is. You're under no obligation to do that for people. They have some cause for complaint if their castable sculpture isn't cast though. The bottom line though is that if you can't do it, you can't do it. You're the ones best placed to make that decision! I'm not au fait with the miniature-casting process to know what these things really entail.

Whatever you decide you can do I'm sure will be well-received and very good value for the price of the armature! I'm certainly not going to get angry about it. However, I would be lying to say that I wouldn't be disappointed if my entry turned out to be castable but wasn't cast. Given the choice, I would rather a copy of my modest attempt than a bag-full of the most professional-looking ones.

Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #535 on: September 17, 2013, 03:00:23 AM »
When you say "selected other miniatures" I'm not really sure whether you mean "the other ones we selected as being instantly castable" or "some other cool ones we like and might do some work on in order to cast up"?

I have to say that the reason I entered a sculpture was not with any delusions of winning the competition, but for the opportunity to get something I had made cast up in metal like a "proper mini".

I had been wondering whether something like this was coming though. Is the problem really the work needed to be nice and get everyone's up to scratch for them, or is it just too much work with all the entries to even cast them? That is to say, if you went through critically throwing out all the non-castable ones rather than trying to repair them or adjusting them for casting, would it still be a massive hassle? Or is it that you would find it too mean to cast some people's without putting in a lot of effort trying to make everyone's castable if possible?

I don't think anyone can have any complaints if you don't try and fix their sculptures if they're uncastable as is. You're under no obligation to do that for people. They have some cause for complaint if their castable sculpture isn't cast though. The bottom line though is that if you can't do it, you can't do it. You're the ones best placed to make that decision! I'm not au fait with the miniature-casting process to know what these things really entail.

Whatever you decide you can do I'm sure will be well-received and very good value for the price of the armature! I'm certainly not going to get angry about it. However, I would be lying to say that I wouldn't be disappointed if my entry turned out to be castable but wasn't cast. Given the choice, I would rather a copy of my modest attempt than a bag-full of the most professional-looking ones.

Well the original text did mention that it had to be castable, but it wasn't  as noticeable as the part where it said you got a casting and more importantly it wasn't made clear just how likely an entry was not to be castable. This wouldn't have been an issue if we'd got 25 entries and say a dozen were disappointed. We got almost a hundred entries and well over half won't be castable, maybe more. That's a 'lot'of people now. We can't fix one sculpt and leave another so we have to be more ruthless. The only sculpts we'll even think about fixing will be winners.

As I mentioned  above this will leave, almost certainly, a handful of people who didn't win anything but who's sculpt 'is' castable.

What I've been trying to diplomatically not say is that of the selection above, most of them will be the... lesser entries. Where almost nothing was done or what was done is mostly just a blob with some fingerprints on etc.  It seems unfair to send to put those through the, quite expensive, casting process and they get a metal casting where a lot of the entries that quite clearly took a significant amount of time more don't get one.

I very much hope nobody is insulted by this, I have been trying to dance around the issue. Every entry is appreciated of course, it's just the way it worked out seems a little off to us so we we're floating alternate solutions.

That make sense?

Offline Internalclock

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #536 on: September 17, 2013, 07:14:55 AM »
I trust your better judgement ;)

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #537 on: September 17, 2013, 07:28:03 AM »
What I've been trying to diplomatically not say is that of the selection above, most of them will be the... lesser entries. Where almost nothing was done or what was done is mostly just a blob with some fingerprints on etc.  It seems unfair to send to put those through the, quite expensive, casting process and they get a metal casting where a lot of the entries that quite clearly took a significant amount of time more don't get one.

I very much hope nobody is insulted by this, I have been trying to dance around the issue. Every entry is appreciated of course, it's just the way it worked out seems a little off to us so we we're floating alternate solutions.

That make sense?

Not really, actually that makes less sense. It wasn't a rule or even a suggestion that your entry needed to be a total overhaul of the armature to the point it's unrecognizable, so it seems... I don't know... harsh to suddenly bring it up as an issue now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly happy with the solution you've proposed, it just somehow irks me that you'll now say people who put less putty on their armature don't deserve to be cast. It doesn't mean less thought was put in, or less work, nor even less time. Some of us tried to work out what we were going to do with an eye specifically to trying to make it castable, doing things less ambitious than we might of in the hope of it remaining castable. I know I did!


In the end it's down to your choice. When people were signing up I kind of saw something like this with just the insane number of entries that were going to be sent.

Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #538 on: September 17, 2013, 10:04:05 AM »
Am I the only person who just wants this to be over?

It has been a long time and it was getting to a point where it looked like the greens would all be returned with an apology anyway... or even just forgotten about.

The fact that SOMETHING is being done is great and although I would dearly love my sculpt to be cast, I accept that if it isn't voted for then it won't be. It's a tough break but hey, at least I'll get the winner sculpts so it isn't as if I have wasted my time... and I'll get my green back too.

I think the time has long since passed when there was going to be a way of liaising with everyone to get the greens castable... and I also think that the popularity of the competition bit HF in the butt (over 70 entries! That's a lot of miniatures to pay for casting).

I think that Artemis is making the best of what he can at this late stage and is having to make some tough decisions based on cash outlay and castability of the miniatures. There also has to be some consideration into whether there is any likelyhood of the sculpts going in the shop to get a return on the large invstment involved with casting a host of miniatures...

Sometimes in life, things happen that are out of our control and we just have to deal with them.

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Offline Pleasurepain

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #539 on: September 17, 2013, 10:33:10 AM »
That makes a lot more sense, ta Artemis.

Although as PossumCraft says, it seems a little odd to introduce a whole new parameter at this stage for getting your miniature cast ("We deem you a professional-enough sculptor.") if you are fretting about applying the one that definitely was spelled out ("Rule 2 of 3: Must be castable."). And even if, as you suggest, the only ones that end up being cast are the more "worked" entries, it might be argued that you could even start to doubt how far some of them follow the first rule. When hardly any of the original pose/surface is left, how much is the resultant sculpture "based on/derived from the armature" any more?

In any artistic field, people are always going to interpret the brief differently (it's one of the main things that makes it interesting, in my mind), and it looks like different people have paid different amounts of attention to different parts of the entry criteria. I'm sure they've also entered for different reasons. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a sculpting competition where you offer to cast miniatures of any entries you (or the general public) deem of a professional enough standard. But you'd have to admit that it doesn't match the original competition brief at all.

If you ever run another one (if this hasn't completely put you off :silly), at least you'll be better placed to spell out what criteria you'll actually be using to cast miniatures next time.

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #540 on: September 17, 2013, 10:36:17 AM »
I believe the overall response, then, is that almost everyone is happy with your proposed solution BUT while you go ahead with it we reserve the right to quietly grmbl to ourselves :P

Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #541 on: September 17, 2013, 12:01:38 PM »
As for the 'professional enough sculptor'...

Some professional sculptors don't sculpt as well as some amateurs.

It is about the end product. Look at your sculpt and think to yourself "if I hadn't made that and I saw it in a shop, would I pay 3-50 for it?"... if the answer is no, then you have answered the question youself.

Part of the original intent of the competition was to add sculpts to the range. If you can say that your sculpt is worthy of that and it doesn't get cast, when your green turns up, see if Tor Gaming like it (or another company that takes on sculpts from all comers)... that way, your wish to have your work in metal may come to fruition (and you may get additional incentives into the bargain).

But it's all horses for courses.

I'm just happy to sit back and see what happens...

... after all, no one died so in the big scheme of things, it is really quite a small thing to worry over ;)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:33:24 PM by Inso »
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Offline Dethkor

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #542 on: September 17, 2013, 12:23:28 PM »
This is starting to remind me of the Heresy dragon  :crazy:
I certainly wouldn't be angry, being a single parent I well aware that life can throw you a curve, but as Pleasurepain said "disappointed" is how I'd feel about waiting this long not to have my mini cast. 

I'm not commenting on anyone's sculpt but my own when I say that I followed the rules, including #2, and most other competitions (sculpting or not) would disqualify entrants that didn't.  The good folks at Hasslefree are bending backwards to accommodate everyone, a task I don't envy, and I hope this doesn't become a deterrent for them to do this again in the future.

What ever happens, good luck to everyone  :smile:

Offline Ben Brownlie

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #543 on: September 17, 2013, 02:37:59 PM »
This is starting to remind me of the Heresy dragon  :crazy:

Really? How? I'm genuinely interested as it seems an odd analogy :)

As for the rest, for the most part this has gone down very well, but then I would expect it would as I do not see the problem in the first place.

For the few on the thread that are less happy, Arty was being more than generous in his post about this and opening up the discussion with such things as "Would that be acceptable to you guys?" and him saying "It was a condition, and an important one, but it was kinda hidden and not as prominent as the part where it says you'll get a metal casting." isn't really the case at all, again he's just being nice*.

It was abundantly clear: There were only there rules in the compy and one of them was that the entry had to be castable. If not, it's not within the rules. I wouldn't have even been so nice as to open up the debate in the first place, but then I'm not quite so cuddly

Simples :)






*Again! I know...  :blink:

Offline PossumCraft

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #544 on: September 17, 2013, 03:09:49 PM »
For the few on the thread that are less happy, Arty was being more than generous in his post about this and opening up the discussion with such things as "Would that be acceptable to you guys?" and him saying "It was a condition, and an important one, but it was kinda hidden and not as prominent as the part where it says you'll get a metal casting." isn't really the case at all, again he's just being nice*.

It was abundantly clear: There were only there rules in the compy and one of them was that the entry had to be castable. If not, it's not within the rules. I wouldn't have even been so nice as to open up the debate in the first place, but then I'm not quite so cuddly

Simples :)

I don't think anyone is debating it's generous to offer everyone who entered a full set of the cast miniatures. What is causing some concern is that it reads very much like the reason for the change from casting every cast-able model is because some at HF feel that not enough work has gone into some of the ones which are cast-able. This was most definitely not something listed in the rules, any kind of x% of final weight must be putty or something.

Offline Inso

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #545 on: September 17, 2013, 03:31:07 PM »
I don't think anyone is debating it's generous to offer everyone who entered a full set of the cast miniatures. What is causing some concern is that it reads very much like the reason for the change from casting every cast-able model is because some at HF feel that not enough work has gone into some of the ones which are cast-able. This was most definitely not something listed in the rules, any kind of x% of final weight must be putty or something.

Originally, all entries were getting cast... that is no longer happening.

Only the winners and some 'favourites' are going to be cast... suggesting that if the miniatures aren't judged as a winning standard, they are not likely to be selected for casting.

What you are querying is completely irellevant now because the goal-posts have changed and of course, judging will always be subjective. Why does it cause you concern? If your sculpt is good enough, it will win. If it isn't, it won't (irrespective of the amount of perceived effort that went into it).

I suspect that the sheer volume of sculpts is the main reason for the 'winners only and favourites' casting... cost and time frame is also probably a good reason too. I think you are reading more into this than is actually there.

It's lucky I'm not dealing with this. I wouldn't have asked for opinions, I'd have stated what was going to happen in a 'public statement'  and left it at that.

I guess Artemis and the HF crew have more patience than I do.



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Offline Artemis Black

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #546 on: September 17, 2013, 07:17:24 PM »

*grin* OK, that was a lot of replies so instead of replying individually I'll try to sum up everything in one post.

1. I'm really not that cuddly, I'm more aware of people's feelings on this matter because of the long delay. That changed things, had I been put in charge 2 weeks after the competition then I may have just said 'This is what's happening' :)

2. This really was me asking people's opinion. I obviously have a way that I'd prefer to get it done because 'I' think it's the most fair and the quickest way to get this competition done with and everyone gets a nice reward for their entry and patience. However if I'm in the miority there I would keep looking for a solution that pleases th majority.

3. I'm not introducing a new element and it's definitely not about 'less putty' or 'less effort' or even 'less skill'. The part above that I knew would be a controversial discussion point is simply an observation. It was a flaw in the original rules that the sheer number of entries has brought to serious light. I am 'not' going to point at anyone's actual entry, that is unacceptable so I'm just going to use an example....

Entry A sculpts a hat and a dress on the armature, not particularly well but obviously the sculptor has done their best etc so it's not be sneezed at, everyone starts somewhere. Entries B through G have all put lots of detail, small things hanging off necklaces or weapons, intircate chains and so on. After the voting Entry A comes dead last and B through F all lose out to Entry G.

Of all of those only Entry A is actually castable without work being done at great cost by Kev. The rules as written means that only Entry A and Entry G gets a metal cast of their figure. To 'me' that seems odd. It's not 'unfair', I'm not suggesting that Entry A doesn't 'deserve' a casting, they after all put in their best effort and provided a castable entry as the rules stated. It just doesn't seem right somehow that that's how it works out. That's our fault for the way we set up the contest and for not being able to fluidly alter the rules as it became evident at an early stage.

Like I said, 20 entries and this wouldn't have been much of an issue. At the moment we're lookign at removing well over 50 entries fo being on castable. That's a lot of people who don't get a metal cast who then see that Entry A above does and feel miffed about it. Not Entry A's fault in any way, but I'm the one who has to deal with those 50 people not Entry A :)

4. No Inso, you are not the only one who wants it to be over ;) Seriously though, what Jenn and I would like at this point is to get this done as quickly and fairly as possible and have at least the majority of entrants be happy. Most of the photography is done, we just need to set up a poll, which will happen this week, and voting can start. This discussion is happening now to make sure we have our ducks in a row while moving forward.

Offline Pleasurepain

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #547 on: September 17, 2013, 07:22:06 PM »
[...]the goal-posts have changed and of course, judging will always be subjective. Why does it cause you concern? If your sculpt is good enough, it will win. If it isn't, it won't (irrespective of the amount of perceived effort that went into it).[...]

Whether or not it is cause for concern depends on why you entered the competition. If you entered in a competitive spirit to win or nothing, or you entered a token effort to get the castings of the eventual winners, it oughtn't concern you. If on the other hand you entered a sculpture to the best of your ability that you didn't think had any hopes of setting the world on fire, but that you would get a metal cast of, then it would concern you. If you specifically decided to "undersell" the potential floweriness of your sculpture to try and ensure it had the best chance of being castable (because you don't often get offered the chance of a cool metal cast of something you made), then it would concern you.

I think how well this is handled really will come down to the detail and that depends on the intention behind it. I'll start off with noting that the quid pro quo was that Hasslefree offered metal castings of their entries to all entrants whose sculptures were castable, in return for a load of sculptures that they could sell if good enough and the potential that also any uncastable entries they had the option to spend a bit of effort to make castable and saleable too if they wished.

If you were overwhelmed by the numbers and there isn't capacity to cast all the readily-castable entries without putting the company in jeopardy:
Fair enough. You can't do what you can't do! In that case the winning entries plus a few selected extras (however they are selected) sounds like a great consolation prize.

If you could cast all the castable entries, but would feel bad for the people whose entries were uncastable:
That's a very noble sentiment. If the non-castable entries seem commercially-viable, these ought to be the ones that Hasslefree has the option to work on because it'd hopefully be worth it. If they're not viable and don't get fixed, people really oughtn't get upset about it. If you decide that you don't want any potential upset though (at the expense of breaking your word and not casting other people's castable entries as promised), this is coming from a nice place, but it's a bit rough on the one's who you are letting down when you could fulfil the deal.

If the number of "selected" entries, or ones that are otherwise used for sale by Hasslefree at some point, approaches the number of potentially-castable ones, so they're no longer really the "consolation prize" mentioned in the first case:
This would be really uncool. You'd be asking permission to swap some people's promised space in the mould for a group of other people's entries based on a new set of criteria. Optimistically, because you'd decided too late that they were better criteria. Cynically, because these would be more profitable in the long run. There is a risk in this last case that Hasslefree might seem like taking the good bits of the original deal (some cool minis, dibs on spending a bit of time on fixing up some potentially cool ones) without fulfilling the other side of the bargain.

I hope it's the first case, I would be somewhat surprised if it turned out to be the last case, but Artemis' last post* worries me slightly.

Of course, this is all based on the premise of an entrant that would rather have their own model that a winner model or a "selected" one. If that's not the case and they'd rather someone else's, no worries, everyone wins! :D

* Edit: one before last post. He got in before me, sneaky ninja!  :P
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 07:23:56 PM by Pleasurepain »

Offline Pleasurepain

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #548 on: September 17, 2013, 07:47:36 PM »
Like I said, 20 entries and this wouldn't have been much of an issue. At the moment we're lookign at removing well over 50 entries fo being on castable. That's a lot of people who don't get a metal cast who then see that Entry A above does and feel miffed about it. Not Entry A's fault in any way, but I'm the one who has to deal with those 50 people not Entry A :)

You have to deal with Entry A too, don't you?

I suppose the difference as I would describe it is that if Entry A gets miffed, it is with some justification, while if Entries B-F get miffed, it's because they are being _____ (inset word of preference here!).  :P

Offline Gothy Beans

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Re: 2012 SCULPTING COMPETITION
« Reply #549 on: September 17, 2013, 07:55:10 PM »
It's lucky I'm not dealing with this. I wouldn't have asked for opinions...
Maybe you wouldn't, but Arty did. So please Inso, try not to get wound up by people giving them.  :terrified: At the end of that day it is what we all love about this forum, that people can freely express how they feel.

My opinion? I am sure a lot of people would not have picked up tools if they hadn't been spurred by the idea of getting a figure cast, myself included. But I am actually really happy either way because it's something I had not done before. I was encouraged to do something new by this competition and I had fun doing it. In the end we can always paint our greens when they return.  :smile:
I'm not respectable, and never sensible - I've been incredible, so damned irascible..
..and I like the things I do, so hooray for me.