Author Topic: Blast from the past  (Read 29016 times)

Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2014, 02:34:17 PM »
Okay, so all basic components sized and fleshed out. Surface details are still broadly to complete but you can get a sense of the overall scales etc.

Lots more pictures on my blog.



Front View: shortened landing gear to make the hull feel squatter and reduce ramp angle.


Side view showing Ramp angle.

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Offline Ajsalium

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2014, 02:53:58 PM »
I still dislike the cockpit. It's made only with straight lines, whereas the hull and engines have some nice tight curves. There's a aesthetic disparity there thay spoils it for me.

It's as if you had stuck the front of this horrible Renault Megane:

On this beautiful Mazda MX-5:


Also, I'd make the cockpit detachable (magnets for the win).
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Offline Inso

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2014, 03:07:25 PM »
Looking at the side view with the ramp angle, it isn't much different in slope angle to that of a Merlin helicopter... so I think you could get away with it (personally).

I tend to agree with Ajsalium about the curviness of the body compared with the boxiness of the cockpit. Now that you have gone digital, there is a perfect opportunity to add a few curves to the cockpit to help tie it better to the body.

One thing I disagree with is making the cockpit detachable. I can't see the logic behind it unless you go the whole hog and make it just like Space 1999 and have a frame that drops the body off... and that is not what this dropship is all about (and would mean a complete re-design). However, seeing as the cockpit would be attached to the body during assembly, there is no reason whoever bought the kit couldn't add magnets and make it detachable if they wanted to... I guess the body would make a good prokie for a habitation unit.
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Offline Ajsalium

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2014, 03:16:18 PM »
My idea regarding a detachable cockpit is that the body is actually a futuristic iso container. So it can be used as a transport for goods, people (troops), or even as a small habitat (advanced command center).
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Offline Inso

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2014, 03:29:34 PM »
But that would mean the cockpit would need to be a spacehip in its own right... and clearly, it doesn't have the size or 'stuff' to be that.

That said, the cockpit is likely to be a resin piece so could be left off if you wanted... or depending on what Brandlin wants to do, the body could possible be sold separately on it's own.
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Offline Tasker

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2014, 10:22:50 PM »
This reminds me so much of the Eagles from Space 1999.  I love it.  :-D
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2014, 04:14:36 PM »
OK, sorry for the delay

Thank you for all the comments.

Trying to address each of them.

Boxy vs Curvy.

Remember that my original intention here was to make a drop ship for my old crow vehicles. Their style is angular and has the raised panel details that you see on the cockpit. The Listerine bottle was merely a 'shape' that appealed to me. Oddly in CAD the boxy vs curvy nature of the parts stands out way more than it does on the real prototype. I think a chunk of that is because the prototype has panels and other surface features on the hull that sharpen the outline more. I do agree that as presented it doesn't look cohesive.

On the prototype the cockpit is scratch built from styrene sheet - and that drove a lot of the straight lines and boxy-ness. I REALLY like the cockpit, but that's probably because i was so happy with how the prototype came out. But I'm also pretty well wedded to the Listerine hull shape.

The 'Space 1999' feel was somewhat deliberate, as i discussed on my original blog build five years ago - homage rather than copy.

I have two options really.

1. Make the cockpit curvier.
2. Make the hull more angular.

For a hollow hull I'm committed to either making a laser cut model to be assembled or scratchbuilding the hull to be resin cast. I think the resin casting of the hull is probably a bit beyond my scratchbuilding skills and knowledge right now. The cockpit is almost certainly going to have to be cast - probably from a 3d print. If the cockpit is going to be 3d printed then curves aren't a problem. So, I think I shall go that route.

NOTE: I just scared myself by loading the cockpit model up to shapeways to get a quote - $65 in their low detail white flexible plastic. but $402 for the detial white plastic! Even hollowing this out only brings the price down to $270! It's only 70 x 50 x 80 mm!! Sheesh. Even the Landing Feet are $8 a piece! SO master print and then cast is the only way forwards.
 

Detachable Cockpit

The cockpit is and always was detachable with magnets. However this was only ever done because the way the prototype was made with the cockpit and hull cast as separate pieces it was the easy design decision. I am not going to redesign to cockpit to be a 'ship' in its own right, but there will be detail on it that you could pretend are thrusters so that you can claim its an escape pod or suchlike. Personally if i was procuring military equipment and the the design gave the opportunity for the fly boys to 'jetison' the troop carrying module to save their own skins, i'm not sure thats a feature i would buy!


Hull or Container?

I have always toyed with the idea of replacing the hull with a 'frame' and having a removable 'pod' (magnets again of course). The 'Frame' would follow the line of the bulges so the engines are mounted in the same location as current and can be vectored. A 'spine' would run across the top of the current Hull Linking the forward and rear engine 'bulges' in a kind of capital 'I' shape. This remains a possibility for a variant in future. It wasn't done with the prototype because the poured resin Hull didn't make it feasible. I like the squat practical shape of the current ship, but dislike the fragile nature of such a variant when the detachable 'pod' is removed.  I would also have to solve the problem that the landing gear only fits in the hull not on the frame, so the vehicle cannot currently land unles sis has the pod. Finallt if the bulges are part of the frame rather than a hull then the pod shape is a pretty boring thunderbird 2 type oval with flattened sides :-(


Scale

What I am going to do is play with the scale of the overall components. regardless of boxy/curves i find the cockpit and engines to be a little on the small side, So they will get beefed up. Don't forget, as per the prototype, this has a pair of rear rudders to be cast and added - I've not CAD modeled it yet.

I may also rescale the rear hull so that it accomodates something bigger than the old crow and Goanna scout vehicles.


I want to be able to get Gladius Medium Tanks and Glaive Medium APCs in it. As well as the modular vehicles that never went on full release that I have a number of...


I think the Claymore Heavy APC will be a step too far, and the heavy Lancer and Sabre are bigger again



Changes

I like the squatter/shorter landing gear so that's staying.
The ramp will slide under the floor of the main hull. (which means redrawing a very large part of the hull structure).
The rear door will still be hinged and i think i'm going to keep it folding down. The hinge wont be in the way of the ramp and the door and ramp will locate with magnets. This means the ramp doesn't need to have an 'axle' in the main hull to pivot. I have toyed with the rear door hinging at the top to keep it clear from the ramp and it might look cool, but it means having to include some for of 'prop' to hold it up and I don't want the fiddle.

Anyway that's all for now.

More waffling and WIP designs for comment as they come.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 04:25:45 PM by Brandlin »
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2014, 10:26:54 PM »
By popular demand... Some outline shapes for a curvier cockpit. We call this the Beyonce prototype.

More pictures on my blog.







Of course, now all those lovely flat panels that I was putting embossed details on to are either single or couble curvature so surface details will take a bit longer to add.

Comments welcome - particularly, is this an improvement? Not only is it curvier, but its also longer but not wider or deeper yet. But I have modelled it Parametrically so the whole design is only constrained by less than a dozen measurements so its very easy to rescale and fiddle with.
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Offline Ajsalium

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2014, 10:42:30 PM »
I think it now looks significantly better, and the two pieces are better tied together.

If anything, I would make it wider but not longer, to help keep the full shape of the dropship more compact (or squat).
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2014, 06:15:51 PM »

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Offline Ajsalium

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2014, 08:08:59 PM »
:thumbup:
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2014, 01:48:06 AM »
Now with curvier engines and details...


... and assembled to the still blank hull.


A few more pics on my blog as always...
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Offline Mr Teufel

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2014, 10:44:40 AM »
Now that's lookin' right purdy... :thumbup:

Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2014, 11:48:39 AM »
Now that's lookin' right purdy... :thumbup:

Why thank you sir!
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Offline Ajsalium

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2014, 03:18:02 PM »
The Beyonce is shaping up nicely. :yup:
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2014, 03:24:04 PM »
Phhhhwoooooar look at the tail on Beyonce!



... and assembled.




I'm just waiting for Inso to come along and tell me how unaerodynamic the tails are (I know - but I like them!) and to suggest that the engines look too exposed and too much like jet turbines to be futuristic :-)

I do still want to model turbine blades on the air intakes and deepen the jet nozzle on the back.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 03:26:11 PM by Brandlin »
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2014, 09:35:04 PM »
Just to show the engines do rotate to provide vectored thrust...




... and if you see it from this angle, then you know you're about to be flattened...
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2014, 02:56:00 AM »
A final picture for today

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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2014, 05:49:59 PM »




Shoulders on the front engine mounts prevent them from exhausting directly into the rear engine intakes.
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Offline Ajsalium

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2014, 08:07:52 PM »
Not bad. Not bad at all. You've nailed it.
Now onto the detailing, and the engineering of making it all work as a model. :whip:
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Offline Steel Penguin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2014, 08:36:39 PM »
 :thumbup:  nice looking,  I would say that if you want to make more than the one "glamour" one it may be best to avoid going too fancy on the detail, though it looks like the engine pod is mirrored on the horizontal so it can be flipped for each side.
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2014, 02:15:20 PM »
Not bad. Not bad at all. You've nailed it.
Now onto the detailing, and the engineering of making it all work as a model. :whip:

Thank you Ajsalium. Still some way to go.

:thumbup:  nice looking,  I would say that if you want to make more than the one "glamour" one it may be best to avoid going too fancy on the detail, though it looks like the engine pod is mirrored on the horizontal so it can be flipped for each side.

Thank you Steel Penguin. Well, I'm definitely going to make more than one as I want 3-4 of them. Whether I then Sell on a few, we shall have to see.

The engines are deliberately symmetrical about the central horizontal plane as they end up mounted upside down on the other side of the ship. Detail level will be similar to the Old Crow Model vehicles with slightly raised panels and a few simple hatches, vents etc. The details on the hull will either be laser cut / etched into the sheets, or where it needs to be a little deeper, resin casts from one piece open molds.

Anyway there is a slightly bigger problem right now...

The dimensions of this dropship were set by the size of the original Listerine bottle used to form the prototype resin cast. I continued using those dimensions when I started to draw up this CAD version for laser cutting. Partly because I am teaching myself the CAD system.

In the meantime I have changed my mind regarding the likely payload for the dropship and want to be able to include almost all my Old Crow 25mm vehicles.

So you see that somewhat large block of 'pine' in the following picture? Well, that's a block with the maximum dimensions of the vehicles I now want to be able to transport. Its the Payload Block.

I think you might see the problem.

Oops.



It's a little on the large side when you slide the block into the payload location...



Compare the maximum dimensions to the relatively small rear door...



So I have some work to do.

Bear in mind I still need to be able to get a full length ramp in under the existing floor, which in itself will mean that I have a few mm less headroom than shown here.

I sketched up a simple block shape to stretch the hull around the Payload Block and I dislike it. It makes the whole ship look far to 'dumpy', the main hull becomes almost cylindrical.

So, I am doing to play around with a few options.
  • Redraw the payload block so it more accurately resembles the models the ship will carry. (for example the tallest vehicle is the Gladius Medium Tank. This tank is much taller in the middle than it is at the edges, so the Cuboid Block isn't a great representation of the sapce actually taken up by the tank.
  • Deepening the main hull around 10mm. This might mean retaining the same width and length or enlarging them in proportion.
  • Lowering the rear hinge a few mm
  • Reducing the rear chamfer on the hull shape so that the rear Door Matches the Mid section ribs. Currently the front and back chamfers on the hull are 10mm from the hull bulges, and the mid section is only 5mm.
I MAY press ahead with this current version and get it made, as this could handle some of the vehicles such as the Goanna and Gecko scout cars and trucks (unlaiden). This could be a command/light version of the drop ship. A further 'Heavy' variant  could then have an enlarged hull with the same cockpit, landing gear, engines and tailfins making the whole thing modular.

Decisions, decisions.
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2014, 03:05:15 PM »
And a slightly more accurate block model of the Gladius Tank.

:-(
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Offline Steel Penguin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2014, 03:13:44 PM »
ohh poot!
you could increase the bay size,  or go for a drop out floor ( similar to the tray for the nuke waste from space 1999) , or  build this as a small vehicle / infantry boat.  the length , width are good? its just the height isn't it?   hmmm
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Blast from the past
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2014, 06:31:15 PM »
ohh poot!
you could increase the bay size,  or go for a drop out floor ( similar to the tray for the nuke waste from space 1999) , or  build this as a small vehicle / infantry boat.  the length , width are good? its just the height isn't it?   hmmm

I'm ruling out the drop out floor as a primary means of loading and unloading. Whilst you can deploy the payload simply by jettisoning it, hovering with VTOL is not only a MASSIVE use of fuel but also difficult due to engine created turbulance. That doesn't mean that a belly door is ruled out as a secondary method (however i want an accessible interior by removingthe roof, and if i remove the belly too, then there's very little holding it all together!)

I am committed to a means of loading and unloading whilst the vehicle is landed. After all, this is a wargaming model if it doesn't land then its hardly going to be on the tabletop.

Yes length is fine. Width is on the limit and height is the major problem. So fundamentally i need more height. HOW I get more height is the tricky bit. I could just scale up the whole thing, i could just thicken the hull. i could remove the rear chamfer too... i need to play with options. I don't really want to lose the overall homage to the original shape which is what started me down this route in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 06:40:44 PM by Brandlin »
"So far in begging stakes Brandlin is waaay ahead with his grav bike"  -  Sally 8/10/08