Author Topic: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...  (Read 55319 times)

Offline leadhead

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2011, 03:10:01 AM »
I'm not a 15mm guy, never will be - too darned small

Well said.  As for the 'use it or loose it', I've been planning an order hoping to have cash to put it in soon.  Not cooing and petting, just stating fact.  :angel:
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Offline Tiacapan

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2011, 07:40:29 AM »
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15mm fans tend to be cheap. "Never mind the quality, feel the quantity". And that's if you're lucky ...

Bit of a broad generalisation don't you think?  I'll refrain from getting into an argument over it, suffice to say I feel differently.

The point is that the current business model isn't working as well as hoped, adding something different could attract a completely different set of customers. 
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Offline Avicenna

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2011, 08:22:54 AM »
it could attract a completely different set of customers, but could also drive away the established customers - thats ok as long as the new outweighs the old.

I'd prefer Heresy to stick with 28mm but focus on specifics to build more of a cohesive 'range' - barbarians, goblinoids & demons, OR scifi gangs. I think that way they could keep their current customer base and start to pull in the skirmish wargamers. But I would, and I am most definitely not Andy's biggest customer :P
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 08:30:14 AM by Avicenna »
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Offline SteveB

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2011, 08:34:33 AM »
I think the idea of taking some of the ranges that you are building and keeping the focus mostly on those rather than starting major new projects is a good one. A brand new complete sci fi gang or fantasy race is a whole lot of sculpting work and tough going under current circumstances but even one new figure, chosen wisely, for a current range will hopefully drive sales of current stuff. Concentrate on figures that are going to be commercially popular but not too bulky to avoid the metal cost problem. Your basic sci fi troopers are nice but a few specialists might open up some sales for a low amount of work. And get them into one piece each if at all possible. You've sculpted the basic raw materials already.
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Offline beefcake

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2011, 08:49:40 AM »
 :metoo:
I've always been tempted by the sci-fi troopers but a heavy weapons specialist and a sergeant would round them off nicely.

Offline Tiacapan

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2011, 09:09:45 AM »
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but could also drive away the established customers

I don't really see how, are people going to stop buying 28mm figures because the manufacturer does an additional range that doesn't appeal to them?  There is room for more than one scale in a company's range.  Look at Mark Copplestone and GZG.  I doubt that they would agree with you.

I'm suggesting diversification into additional territory rather than abandoning 28mm completely.

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Offline Avicenna

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
I'm suggesting diversification into additional territory rather than abandoning 28mm completely.

aaaaaaah ok!! I was missing that bit of important info, fair enough :) (serves me right for scan-reading the other posts) I was definitely not suggesting there isnt room for more than one scale, i'd probably go the other direction and want 28mm and 54mm :P

It certainly makes your suggestion food for thought, but I am still on the other side of the playground regarding 15mm, but that may just be personal preference as a former gamer and now just a painter. I tend to be of the SteveB school of thought
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:08:09 AM by Avicenna »
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Offline Tiacapan

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2011, 10:41:27 AM »
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but that may just be personal preference as a former gamer and now just a painter

And that, I think is what makes the debate so interesting, I would imagine that painters tend to buy one (or possibly a couple) of any one figure to paint up.  Whereas I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum, as a gamer who can't paint at any more than a tabletop standard I'm much more interested in buying figures in bulk to make up units, hence my interest in the smaller scales.

Wargamers are much more likely to buy figures in large quantities to build armies and in smaller scales it is much more likely that figures will sell in large quantities.  For example Eureka minis do a range of 15mm samurai which are of reasonable quality for the scale.  They only have three variations of the Ashigaru figure with spear but if you're building an army you are still likely to buy a large number of castings (my own army has over 200 spearmen alone).  So for the sake of sculpting three figures, they have sold 300 to me alone.  Okay the value is lower but the going rate can be as high as £5 for 8 figures (eek, hope my missus doesn't read this).

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Offline SteveB

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2011, 11:15:19 AM »
Really don't think 15mm is the way to go. To make a go of that I think Andy would need to sculpt a lot of stuff to capture a proper audience. A massive sculpting project for an unsure market would just heap stress on. I'd say that the broad advice is to find small changes that can be made that will open things up rather than sweeping changes.
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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2011, 12:09:57 PM »
Andy, do you even want to do 15mm?

Offline libertee

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2011, 12:43:52 PM »
Andy, do you even want to do 15mm?

i bet he says "NO"
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Offline Tiacapan

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2011, 12:56:02 PM »
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i bet he says "NO"

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Andy, do you even want to do 15mm?

http://forum-of-doom.com/index.php?topic=9850.0
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Offline Big Boris

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2011, 01:00:00 PM »
Yes. Love to. Soz, Sal. :)


I did some dollies ages back but never got a chance to take it further.
Will do so at some point. But not until I have a stable cash flow that allows me the time to devote to it.

Maybe sci-fi, maybe fantasy, quite like the idea of fantasy but think sci-fi would sell more reliably as there is a huge market for it existing and people will always be interested in adding another unit. Only thing is that Khurasan Miniatures seem to be producing phenomenally good sculpts in that area for tanks etc so the bar is quite high these days.

First, though, I am concentrating on expanding the goblins and troopers. Well, after I've worked out all this Spyglass stuff - how much etc, add to cart, do all the pics, blah blah. Them and a secondary gang to go against the trenchies and that.

As to rules, yes that too, but again I tried to get some help with that at the time in terms of playtesting and things and it seemed that nobody was really able to help out.

Offline DRAGON

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 07:02:34 PM »
I must admit I have kind of exhausted my Heresy purchases due to the lack of new releases which is a shame because I really like Andy's stuff. I will be purchasing some of the Spyglass stuff which makes me feel a bit guilty for not supporting Steve more ! As to the 15mm idea, it wouldn't interest me  :shrug:
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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2011, 08:01:23 PM »
would 15mm stuff be that popular? I know WWII stuff is all the rage at the moment but would fantasy and sci fi sell? What scale was epic? was it 6mm?

Offline AKULA

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2011, 08:21:55 PM »
Not wishing to upset anyone, in particular, on this thread, but Andy is asking for those people who put off purchases again...and again....and again.... to cough up, as otherwise, Heresy won't be around when they do decide they want their toys.

If you don't want anything, or can't afford it, that's up to you, but save the business advice, or amateur psychology for another time - its not going to pay his mortgage. 

 :roll:

It doesn't cost you anything, other than a few minutes of your time, to remind a mate who mentioned they were after a Hürn, that they are available now (or never), or to pimp a range, or figure, on another forum, or even your blog.

Order placed, and Heresy Miniatures pimped.

Best of luck Andy.

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2011, 08:25:26 PM »
Oh, sorry Akula.

Offline Orc Man

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2011, 08:54:20 PM »
Not wishing to upset anyone, in particular, on this thread, but Andy is asking for those people who put off purchases again...and again....and again.... to cough up, as otherwise, Heresy won't be around when they do decide they want their toys.

If you don't want anything, or can't afford it, that's up to you, but save the business advice, or amateur psychology for another time - its not going to pay his mortgage. 

Well, I don't see the problem with the advice, it's in response to the issues Heresy (and more importantly Andy) are facing right now. Got to think long term as well as short, you know. I placed an order a few days ago (which has arrived now, btw, thanks for the Drumstick!), but I felt chipping in to support some advice already given is worthwhile. Because, at the end of the day, Heresy wants to keep going, and that's not going to happen if all we do is place orders short term.

Market research is important, and some companies spend a lot on this kind of thing, we're just giving Andy our somewhat less professional opinions for free.

It doesn't hurt, so long as people remember that Heresy needs money right now to survive and make any improvements in the future.

Offline AKULA

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2011, 08:57:44 PM »
Oh, sorry Akula.

wasn't aimed at you mate.

 :wink:

My point was, its all very well us all turning the thread into a discussion about, Andy making this that or the other.... "in future"....what he needs right now, is preferably hard cash, or at least some assistance in drumming up more biz, to meet the bills he has right now, otherwise the rest won't matter.

I do think there are steps, Heresy could take, in terms of ranges, marketing etc, and it is worth having a constructive thread about that sort of thing, but right now, the best thing I can do, is give him what biz I can, and find a few extra customers, if possible.

Now if that does upset anyone on this thread, feel free to be annoyed at me, you won't be the first.

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2011, 09:13:21 PM »
Thing is some of us have already done that Matt, as others have pointed out its all well and good people making a purchase to help keep heresy afloat but if there's a bigger problem (or problems) to deal with, then it isn't sustainable long term. And theres only so many times people can keep promoting it to friends.

If everything goes well and the four and a half grand is paid this month, what about next month? Lets say Craig were to work for free and I volunteered on my days off - that still doesn't really address the cash flow issue I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong here Andy), which is tied to the product itself.

Hence the suggestion for 15mm. Its cheap, its dirty, and theres a market. Yes others might be doing higher quality, but there definitely charging for it, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a long term thing. If there wasn't so much owed in such a short time I'd suggest a female gang - that way you have cross sales and your supporting an existing range. Thats not possible. Spyglass might generate a pile of sales but it depends on what spyglass models, how quick andy can get them into production etc. As it stands, and having seen how popular those copplestone barbarians have been - cheap and dirty seems best.

Theres also option number 3 (or 20, CBA counting how many have been suggested) - sell a section of the range. I can't imagine you ever selling the dragon, but I'm sure someone would take your fantasy adventurers, which you were intending to re-do anyway, and are being replaced by the spyglass range.

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2011, 09:42:07 PM »
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wasn't aimed at you mate.

Doesn't matter even it it were dude, we're all adults.  :D

In my opinion, this thread doesn't come across as tin rattling at all. Like others have said, I'd rather know about it before hand than log on one day and there be no Heresy. I think it says a lot that people are going out of their way to spend their own free time genuinely trying to help Andy and Craig out.  I know its not the done thing to say anything that can be seen as against the flow, (as poor Lostboy found out) but ias long as its helpful advice I personally don't see whats wrong with offering it, Andy is under no obligation to act on it, nor have we seen him complaining about people suggesting things.

I personally would hate to see Andy go under, not just cos he's a nice guy but the armoured Big Boris was one of the first non GW figures I bought when I discovered that there was life outside GW, so I owe heresy a debt of gratitude for showing me another option..  I've bought most of the fantasy range over the years since then and thats possibly the problem, I've run out of models in the genre I collect.  Maybe others have too. I don't think the few orders a year I put in for procreate will help pay the bills much.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.


Offline Orc Man

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2011, 10:46:49 PM »
armoured Big Boris was one of the first non GW figures I bought when I discovered that there was life outside GW

It was the first I bought (well, okay, there were a few other bits in the order with him), must be something about that mini. I really should buy another one in next month's order, so I can have both helmeted and bare-faced versions!

In fact... An armoured Boris Mk. 2 would be really awesome!

Back on topic, selling some of the range could work out for ya. I mean, you've been intending to redo the adventurers for the most part for quite some time now (and I just bought my 2 paladins, which were the last old adventurers I wanted :lalala:) Remaking them in fewer parts to cut future costs and selling on the old versions might make you a bit of cash.

Also maybe remaking some retired figures could be a good move. I still hear talk of the Waspquitoes and Lurkers pretty often (hell, I am in the process of getting some Lurkers right now). New, better versions could draw back those who missed them the first time so long as they aren't too different from the original sculpts.

All that said, I know sod all about running a miniatures company, I don't know what your sales are/were like on those items, and what chance there is of you making a decent profit doing any of those suggestions, and I think everyone else here should acknowledge that this little disclaimer applies to their advice too.

I'm behind any Netherhells revival all the way, though. Especially if you make your orc concepts into minis! Realistically (physically plausible) proportioned orcs would sell VERY well I think, since that's the biggest complaint I see with most 28mm orcs.

Offline Tiacapan

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2011, 10:58:19 PM »
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If you don't want anything, or can't afford it, that's up to you, but save the business advice, or amateur psychology for another time - its not going to pay his mortgage.

Fair enough I suppose, rather than derail the thread further I'll refrain from further comment.
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Offline Vermis

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2011, 01:21:23 AM »
In my opinion, this thread doesn't come across as tin rattling at all.

I feel a kind of reluctant ownership of that phrase. :P  So again, I didn't aim it at Andy.  Like he says, the thread is aimed at fairweather customers, and nothing wrong with a business saying 'Hey, buy my stuff!"  The thing I'm worried about is...

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I think it says a lot that people are going out of their way to spend their own free time genuinely trying to help Andy and Craig out.

Which is brilliant, and I'm not knocking the authenticity of feeling or the role of customer loyalty.  But something in the back on my inexpert amateur head agrees that loyal custom settling into a charity mindset isn't a great thing.  Not for the long term; and this is and has been the long term.  We're, like, already in the future, man!
I want to see Heresy clear this hump, but I want to see it break the cycle too.  The hardcore fanbase's scraping and pimping hasn't broken it yet.

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I personally would hate to see Andy go under, not just cos he's a nice guy but... I discovered that there was life outside GW, so I owe heresy a debt of gratitude for showing me another option.

Yup.  A little ad in the back of Thrud #1, for me.

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...and I think everyone else here should acknowledge that this little disclaimer applies to their advice too.

Definitely.  But just go do a couple of searches, maybe a spot of poll-taking about 15mm on TMP or elsewhere. ;)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:31:23 AM by Vermis »
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Offline Balgin Stondraeg

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Re: Use it or lose it. Heresy's future...
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2011, 02:03:35 AM »
Perhaps some orcs to go with the goblins.
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