Author Topic: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?  (Read 3757 times)

Offline harriak

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Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« on: March 27, 2011, 10:19:12 AM »
Hello.

Today is a great day, the Spanish Avatar of War show their first plastic miniatures http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=63.

And this guys are part of the miracle http://www.renedra.co.uk/

I think that if they can get so great dwarf slayer Hassle Free should be able to get some pastics gryms.

Oskar

Offline voltan

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2011, 10:39:44 AM »
It's 20 odd grand for the mould that's stopping it
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Offline Hasslefriesian

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2011, 11:36:49 AM »
Exactly so. If I had a spare £20000 that I didn't need an immediate return on I'd do it. I don't, so I wont.
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Offline agentmolar

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2011, 01:07:05 PM »
I don't know how popular the grymn are to invest large sums in plastics.
That could be a company killer.

Having said that, some more sci fi marines in plastics with Kevs sculpting, multipart. Oh my yes that would be good.

Imagine modern zombies sculpted by Kev, in plastic in bulk.... oh yes. Move over Wargame foundry and mantic.


But its the investment required thats the killer. I seriously need to make my millions so I can invest in the minis game.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 01:10:54 PM by agentmolar »
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Offline SteveB

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2011, 01:29:37 PM »
Not just the monetary investment, it'd also take a great deal of time to physically sculpt all the 3up components for such a project. If it's a sprue with two multipart figs on then that's not a huge time investment but what about five, and with lots of options? Could easily see Kev vanish for a few months...
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 01:35:34 PM »
also, those dwarf beserkers are bum fudge.
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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2011, 03:55:47 PM »
...and it is Grymn not Gryms...;)

The whole plastic debate has been going on and off here for ages.  I personally think the way forward would be to stick with what HF has already and if further investment turns up, don't waste it on plastics...just make more of what HF is good at...quality miniatures.

Multi-part plastics will always be the poor cousin to individually cast miniatures and let's face it, even a company like GW has proven with some of its recent releases that you can get things wrong in injection plastic...and they have a much larger purse too...
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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2011, 05:25:19 PM »
Thing is, Kev is just one man. Even if we were to get a stack of investment it wouldn't necessarily increase Kevs production, just add more from other people. You only have to look a the Perrys (who made the costs back on there first plastic kit within the first month..) to see that not only is there a demand for plastic, but a huge profit to be made if its done right.

I'll be honest, I've always considered metal to be the poor cousin of plastic (and both are poor substitutes for the pretty resin) - maybe five years ago I would have said different, but with the quality of recent plastic kits thats completely flipped. The Victrix kits aren't amazing, but having bought a few of them they've been improving with each set and thats impressive and I'm really looking forward to there next sets. Another example is GW's Dark Eldar Raider which is quite simply exquisite. I've had it out of the box a few times and it always blows me away.

Should Kev do plastics if HF gets the money? Without a doubt. Should it be Grymn? Not at all.

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2011, 05:51:47 PM »
I'll agree that some of the GW plastics are excellent...

...but the Gryphon for the latest Warhammer box has very little detail...and some of the undercuts on sprues like the terminators etc, leave areas that are oblitorated of detail.  If a company as big as GW can't get it right, with all the experience they have at hand, then getting a really saleable plastic sprue right first time, with minimal expenditure would be very difficult indeed...Wargames Factory are a perfect example of getting a lot of their stuff wrong...very shallow details...

I don't know what vision Kev has for the company but I hope sprues of plastic, multi-part miniatures isn't it (if the money turned up)...he's just too good at the other stuff, to be honest.
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Offline leadhead

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2011, 06:15:35 PM »
I'm in the "Against Plastic" party too.  For all the above stated reasons and, say you paint up a squad/unit, then decide that you don't like the color scheme.  Your options are, strip the models down likely loosing a lot of detail in the process, paint over what is there possibly losing detail in the process, or shell out more money to replace the unit you didn't like maybe being able to salvage the last unit for bits. :nah:

The speed at which you would have to turn out miniatures and bits to cover costs would take time away from the detail work that makes kev's stuff so cool in the first place.  If you look at GW boxed units they are pretty boring to look at, the parts are not deeply detailed and you can tell they aren't sculpted with much care for a good final figure, they want quantity over quality. :whip:

I've always prefered to paint metal minis (resin is a new thing to me).  When you're holding it in your hand you can feel that you are actually holding something.

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2011, 06:27:07 PM »
Quote
..but the Gryphon for the latest Warhammer box has very little detail...and some of the undercuts on sprues like the terminators etc, leave areas that are oblitorated of detail.

With the griffon, if you look at the amount of miniatures on the sprue its not particularly bad. Swings and round abouts - the sheer amount of time I spend checking models for miscasts would far out weigh any time spent making sure a plastic set would work.

Quote
.  Your options are, strip the models down likely loosing a lot of detail in the process, paint over what is there possibly losing detail in the process, or shell out more money to replace the unit

What on earth are you using to strip you plastics :S I've currently got a pile of guardsmen in dettol that are nearly finished and they've been in there nearly a month now. I do however, have metal models that haven't stood up as well to stripping as I find you have to use abrasives which loses the detail.

The rising cost of tin and miniature manufacture put plastic firmly to the fore - maybe not for us though.

Offline geronimo

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2011, 06:41:32 PM »

The rising cost of tin and miniature manufacture put plastic firmly to the fore - maybe not for us though.

Plastic's not going to get any cheaper with the ongoing rises in petroleum prices. Resin, acrylic, styrene and other plastic products are increasing in price continually at the moment....
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Offline leadhead

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2011, 07:10:13 PM »
What on earth are you using to strip you plastics :S I've currently got a pile of guardsmen in dettol that are nearly finished and they've been in there nearly a month now. I do however, have metal models that haven't stood up as well to stripping as I find you have to use abrasives which loses the detail.

I've never heard of using dettol to strip paint.  I lack the patience to wait a month for paint to wash off.  For stripping metal minis i soak them in acetone and brush off the paint then wash with soapy water.
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Offline tremorspin

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 07:58:18 PM »
so everyone should stary making minis out of wax with optional wick then?

Offline DanG

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2011, 08:04:48 PM »
I've never heard of using dettol to strip paint.  I lack the patience to wait a month for paint to wash off.  For stripping metal minis i soak them in acetone and brush off the paint then wash with soapy water.

Acetone.  Yeah, that'll kill plastics.

Trust us on the dettol.  And dont worry about waiting a month thats just lazy and fo5rgetful, it only really needs about 24 hours and that'll strip all acrylics and often a fair amount of oil based paint too on both plastic and metal.  The only substance that doesn't fair too well is greenstuff, as it goes soft (although miliput remains a sculpted stone surface).
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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2011, 08:11:10 PM »

Dettol is great for stripping stuff - 24 hours is normally enough - paint lifts like magic and it seems to work on most paint including door frames if it splashes and you don't notice.... :whistle:
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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2011, 09:12:59 PM »
I think plastic can work, especially considering the alternative plastics they are looking into now and the fact that there is a lot of recyclable plastic out there.

The cost of plastic is still reletively cheap. I believe it costs pennies in material to create a sprue. It is all the upfront costs that are the biggest issue.

As others have suggested, Grymn may not be universally liked enought to take the gamble on.

The successful companies out there are so for a reason. Until the Perry's and Victrix if you wanted large units of Naps you had a choice. You pay out a lot for very good miniatures that look nice, or you pay less and get more for your money trading in for quality. It was a no-brainer venture, it was simply a gamble on whether the historicals market was ready for plastics and it appears it was.

Sci-fi is different. And in all honesty if it wasn't for the games systems, I wonder if GW would sell much just on appearance of models considering their prices etc.

Plastic doesn't really suit big organig pieces but it works for tanks. It has it's place for sure. Tanks, rank and file and artillery. Other pieces are better of metal or resin. The one offs etc.
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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2011, 09:15:36 PM »
Its only a month as I'm in no rush, and the primer was on there pretty solid (they've already had one bath in simple green which didn't budge a thing, and that stuffs usually awesome). I have seen a few cheap ultrasonic cleaners so I'm planning to give that a go soonish.

Geronimo - Yeah completely true, but you get more bang for your buck. The Perry Zouaves I'm planning to use for my next guard army are £16 for 42 and there pretty good quality. Look at Mantic as well. Any kid can pick up a huge dwarf army and get painting and playing fairly quickly, at a cheap price for the customer and at a profit for Mantic. Combine that with the sheer amount of noise they make online and you have a company thats doing really well despite the sculpts being relatively simplistic.

EDIT: Fairly rambly from me. Should have just waited for mcfonz to post :D

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2011, 11:01:04 PM »
Acetone.  Yeah, that'll kill plastics.

Trust us on the dettol.  And dont worry about waiting a month thats just lazy and fo5rgetful, it only really needs about 24 hours and that'll strip all acrylics and often a fair amount of oil based paint too on both plastic and metal.  The only substance that doesn't fair too well is greenstuff, as it goes soft (although miliput remains a sculpted stone surface).
I've actually used cheapo nail polish remover (the sometimes slightly smelly stuff that has acetone in it) to strip plastic minis quite often - it's ok if you only leave them in for a short time (15 minutes or so). On the other hand I've had serious problems with getting rid of acrylic paint using dettol on a few metal minis - even after leaving them in the glass for about four months now... Might have to buy some more nail polish remover again after all. 
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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 04:55:54 AM »
I use dettol basically because I'm too lazy to make a trip to the hobby store for paint stripper when I can just buy dettol at the supermarket. I hear it's good for cleaning out wounds too! 24 hours is a good time but I usually leave it for almost a week and then the paint pretty much slides off. Especially good for use on plastic which would usually just melt otherwise.

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2011, 08:13:13 AM »
Don't forget, kids, those plastic sprues cost pennies, not pounds, to the manufacturer. it's only the tooling cost that is overwhelmingly massive. Once you've got the tooling cost back it's all gravy. But it's a question of CAN you get that cost back?

Mantic is doing OK with its plastics because Ronnie Renton used to run GW UK and then the GW Trade department, he knows how to get product into stores including big chain stores and even supermarkets. He knows how to get the punters in. He has the funds to hire people to do all the crappy admin stuff and spend all day on the phones selling to traders. He has investors backing the plastics - and even he is searching for a cheaper way of doing those plastics, hence his 'plastic resin' figures, which are basically the same as the plastic figures we know but produced in aluminium moulds rather than steel, which apparently is much cheaper to tool and presumably means the moulds won't last as long as steel ones.

I personally would do plastics in a blink of an eye! - if I had the cash and thought I had a product that would get it's money back inside a year, that is...

PS The tooling cost is more like £30,000 - £40,000 per sprue, not £20,000 as I understand it. Depends on the complexity of the sprue

Offline freakinacage

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2011, 09:27:02 AM »
the idea of plastics is good. it's a shame about the initial costs. as pointed out, that's the only killer. it's a shame, the weapons sprues could be crammed on. conversion packs etc. as mentioned, a well sculpted multipart adventurer pack would rock.

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 09:29:39 AM »
Ah, the amount of ideas for cool stuff I'd love to do in plastic. Mostly utterly impractical stuff though...

... and even the practical stuff would be utterly outside of financial possibility...
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Offline Chris_M

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2011, 10:35:32 AM »
Dettol is great for stripping stuff - 24 hours is normally enough - paint lifts like magic and it seems to work on most paint including door frames if it splashes and you don't notice.... :whistle:
Is that 24 hours per layer? I've got some old Wood Elves that might be in for a month or two in that case (acrylics and enamels - well, they were my first army :)).

Anyway, I'm sure Kev and Sally have better things to spend 10s of thousands of pounds on than injection moulds which may not make their money back - like the mortgage...

Offline Enazel

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Re: Avatar of war is moving to plastic, why not the gryms?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2011, 01:04:36 PM »
24-48 hours is about as long as I every needed to leave figures in Dettol to remove the paint, including figures that go back 20 years give or take :).