IS this the future of scuplting....

[yxalitis]

This is how a rank amateur created an amazing miniature for his private collection...amazing stuff..

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?13570-I-got-my-typhon-printed-and-now-to-paint!&s=635b5638c2823950fe18a30cfaad6790

Replace elite sculpting skills for leet h@x0r CAD skills, and all that pain Andy is gong through re-sculpting toe nails disappears, (to be replaced by all that pain of a hard disc crash!)

Worthwhile concept for getting the master... I wonder if this is how some of the new starters in the industry work.

[justice]

Digital sculpting is part of the future of the industry, but it still requires sculpting skills!

Calling the guy a 'rank amateur' is a bit far fetched, he's clearly got experience in producing 3d models. Even if you can knock up a decent sculpt in ZBrush or similar digital application, the 'techy' bit of making it castable requires a lot of knowledge of 3d principals.

At the moment it's also quite cost prohibitive, you can easily spend hours mucking around in a 3d app, racking up a big bill for the producer, and that's before you even consider having it printed, then mastered, then producing production moulds!

[Big Boris]

It's something I'd like to get into, but I can't spare the cost of the zbrush program, which is several hundred pounds to a non-student... I have played about with Sculptris, a free app, and that was a laugh.

[justice]

It's something I'd like to get into, but I can't spare the cost of the zbrush program, which is several hundred pounds to a non-student... I have played about with Sculptris, a free app, and that was a laugh.

There are ways, some may say they're not strictly the most legal ways but there are ways, to procure Zbrush at a minimal cost, ie free. Not that I'd condone that sort of thing. 3.5 on PC is the best version, sadly the mac is still stuck on 3.2b which doesn't have the wonderful zSketch feature, but both PC and Mac are getting V.4 in october I think. There is a small cove, a Bay you might call it, on the internet full of buccaneers, some would say pirates. I'm sure they could point you in the direction of Zbrush....


I heartily recommend a decent Graphics Tablet if you're going to play, a mouse just don't cut it!


Oh and I'd also recommend 'acquiring' either 3DSMax or Maya or Blender at a push, just to familiarise yourself with 3d modelling principals and make the base meshes and hard edges less of a nightmare!

[Klute]

Its inevitable that digital media will become more and more common in our hobby. Print quality and costs can only get better as well. Alot of people say its not really sculpting and like cheating but I see it just as another way for a creative mind to express themselves.

Is Stephen Hawking cheating cos he doesnt use a real mouth to speak ?   

[Inso]

I would say that digital sculpting is going to be a huge part of the future of sculpting minis...but it will still just be a part of it.

The printing process needs to improve for starters...a lot of prints have contour lines on them so they need finishing prior to going for casting (if the producers can be bothered to do a proper job, that is).

I can see the computer programs encompassing '3d casting' software at some point...that way there will only be the image sculpting to worry about because the software will tell you what to change to make it castable.

Limitations on the printing process, sharp edges, intricate details and the like CAN be difficult to re-create with 3d printing.

The purists will always want hand sculpted miniatures because they encapsulate the style of the sculptor and also the inaccuracies...who wants their miniatures super-perfect?  It is the little imperfections that give a sculpt character....

I wouldn't call digital, 3d-printing cheating...I would call it a different approach to getting an end product.

Think of it like the difference between plastic/metal/resin...it is simply a different method of producing miniatures, that is all.

(All of this post is just whimsical meanderings...personal thoughts...and well natured ...some people will HATE 3d printing and some will love it.  I am of the opinion that it serves a purpose and in the future it will improve to a point where people can make their own stuff without being a sculptor...it may not be cool for producers of miniatures because their revenue will fall but for someone who can't sculpt to be able to get their dream character made, by themselves...how cool is that?!).

[Thantos]

I totally disagree that people who produce 3d models with CGI can be called rank amateurs at sculpting or that it should be viewed as a 'lessor method' - it is simply different in the fact you dont pay for putty.
Ive been 3d sculpting for years, am taking a degree in character modeling this year and eventually would like to get some minis cast up. Its the printing process that lets it down.

I was looking to get a goblin bust printed, after i add some morph targets to get an evil expression.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e146/Eddievedda/---/goblin1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e146/Eddievedda/---/goblin2.jpg

[Beastlord]

The purists will always want hand sculpted miniatures because they encapsulate the style of the sculptor and also the inaccuracies...who wants their miniatures super-perfect?  It is the little imperfections that give a sculpt character....

I think it's this that lets it down for me - there is a "style" which 3D sculpts seem to have with rounded edges and an indefinable lack of character.... Can't put my finger on it exactly but it's similar in a lot of digital art. As you say it's maybe the little 'imperfections' which really give a sculpt character sometimes.

[beefcake]

I think it's awesome. I had no idea there were 3.d. printers and that actually seems quite a cheap run to get it printed too. I was expecting it to be more in the range of several hundred.
I can see why people don't think of it as "real sculpting" though as you don't have to worry about curing time etc and you can easily chop something out that you don't want to. I'd be keen to give that a go if I had the spare cash to buy a 3-d modeller, and I have a brother that is a 3.d. animator (currently unemployed) who I imagine could produce something of equal or better quality. I may have a look at sculptris now.

Edit: Sculptris just over 3 megs. An easy download but having just downloaded it the quality may not be great.

[Cait Sidhe]

3D CG modelling can technically be easier than sculpting by hand due the your full control over zoom, positioning etc. There is also automated scripts for obtaining effects easily. Done some awesome dragon scales? Easily replicated across the entire model or wherever you want them.

As folk have said though the quality of prints isn't really there yet, at least not at small scale I don't think. I bought the first set of Raging Heroes minis because I loved the concept of them but was quite dissapointed with the softness of detail especially given the prices.

If you really want to play around with 3D and don't want to spend a few grand then blender is what you want. It's free open-source and has a large community providing support and advice. Apparently it's an advantage if you aren't used to 3DSMax as it's a completely different interface. I haven't done anything with it beyond maing a ridiculously large sword for my character to swing about in Mount and Blade. 

[Klute]

*rant on

No matter what media is used it will always require a talented and creative person to do the "sculpting".  If you dont have that spark to start with your going nowhere.

*rant off

[beefcake]

Just like sports I guess, famous sportspeople usually excel at one sport but definately have talents in other sports too. Just the same as putty modelling and computer modelling

[mnpazan]

The tech is all here already, it's just a matter of the costs coming down. The best software still costs buckets of money, and if you want to make the best of even the free software in terms of detail and complexity, you need to have hardware that's built for it. And that's not counting hardware accessories like tablets, space navigators, etc.. Putty's just plain cheaper.

There are printers and services which can do the fine detail resolution needed for minis (as in, you can't see the print lines without a microscope. Not a magnifier: a microscope) they're just VERY expensive right now. It's only the more assessable services that have resolution issues. A lot depends on what machines and what materials they're running.

All this'll just keep getting cheaper and easier though. It's only a matter of time before hobbyists can do it as economically as putty sculpture.

Here's a service I've been looking at recently:
http://www.shapeways.com/
Have a look through their site & form. Some folks are already doing starship-type gaming minis through them. Print resolution is currently on the low side, but they're relatively affordable, and extremely easy to use.

Some more programs:
Google Sketchup - Way more capable than it's often given credit for, especially with all the third party add-ons available. I use this instead of Blender, since Blender doesn't work properly on my machine.
Wings 3D - Another good freeware modeler.
Daz3D - Kind of a lighter equivalent to Poser. Lots of Poser format stuff works n Daz too, so there's plenty of free stuff out there for it.
CB Model Pro - Kindergarden equivelent of Zbrush. Kind of awkward IMO, but it's free and it does organic sculpting.
Meshlab - A great file converter and diagnostic tool for cleaning & prepping your model to print. Also allows you to import/export between programs that won't import/export mutually compatible formats.

I'd never heard of Sculptris before. Gonna give that a try now. Thanks!

[Penfold]

I could see the advantage of using this tech for vehicles like grav bikes  , tanks and so on, but for figures i see it going to be another metal over plastic debate.

[mcfonz]

The future wont be designing it with a PC it will be to accurately scan in hand sculpted models that the electronic system can absorb and produce / scale to a 3 up etc.

A tablet is never going to be good enough to sculpt with as it is essentially a two dimensional tool.

When you sculpt you need to be able to see exactly what is happening - its not always as clear on a monitor.

[justice]

True a tablet and pen system won't always cut it, which is why the top end systems like the one GW use makes use of Haptic input devices which offer feed back and feel like you're actually sculpting.
And to be honest, the way that you can rotate and scale a digital sculpt often means that you can get a better handle on it than you would with a physical green.

The technology for 3D scanning of master is already there, admittedly it's expensive, but I don't see that side of things developing. I think that straight to virtual clay is the future. The sculpting software is there, the printing technology just needs to follow suit.

[caerban]

I suspect that when you've got all the top end hardware and software that this sort of 3D work is just as good as traditional methods. I suspect that it's easier and less time consuming than traditional methods but no less skilled. Let me explain what I mean. Take Andy's dragon toes, once he's sculpted one to his exacting standards he has to go effectively back to the beginning and start again. In digital media you can copy, paste, rescale, morph and repose your original toe and save a lot of time. But you still have to be skilled enough to sculpt that toe in the first place. So let's say easier on the soul rather than easier to do. I bet Andy would have killed for a couple of old saves and an undo button while he's been sculpting the dragon

[geronimo]

3D printers are just another tool.

20 years ago they told us computer CAD would put us out of business.
15 years ago they said stereolithography would kill modelmaking stone dead.
10 years ago CAD lasers were going to be the end of traditional modelmaking.
5 years ago 3D printers started appearing, and familiar tales were told.

I use all four of these as tools for different jobs, each has its' place, just as scalpel, straight edge and square do.

It's the skill of the user, not the spankiness of the tool that's important....

[mcfonz]

I also think its a matter of philosophy.

Miniatures up until reletively recently were entirely a type of 'craft' and most companies remained to be 'cottage industries'.

Its a bit like the industrial revolution having reached the miniature world. However I do think its not the be all and end all of the industry. I think for mass produced kits it is fine, things like vehicles, sprues and sprues of infantry etc, but I am not convinced that the computer version of sculpting will ever entirely cotton on in the entire industry.

At the moment the costs are just too much for smaller companies and even then once the software etc has become more available you are also talking about needing a 3d printer, again a decent one is going to cost a lot.

Sure the mold makers could invest in one so that all would be needed is the software file with it on but then thats another problem: the sculpter will want to see the miniature in the flesh before giving the go ahead.

Look how many times Andy and Kev have scrapped ideas and gone back to the begining or chopped and changed bits. Sure its easy to remove and add bits and still save the original 3d sculpt but in some cases they could be going backwards and forwards several times until they are happy - how much would a 3d render cost compared to one green?

Its also not a new technology - its been around for at least five years. When I was studying product design it was being hailed as the new technology for proto-typing. And in five years I wouldn't say it has progressed as much as other technologies. So as for the future I think you are talking somewhere between 5-10 years before you start seeing 'small' buisinesses starting to consider it in a big way. I understand there are some companies out there already using it for vehicles - I am talking about miniatures.

Its also a matter of values . . . .

[MightyAl]

TBH, I think that what this sort of process really needs is a refinement of the whole scultor/model interface. All the elements are around somewhere, they just need to be combined properly.
The input device requires the give some feedback - and things that do that are in use. But I think you need to combine that with some of the 3D display devices that are starting to become viable for home use. Add to that the ability to rotate the model through 3 axes, and the ability to control your zoom, lighting etc(and, of course, the abilty to undo actions with a keystroke), and it becomes not unlike actual modelling.

Of course, that might be seen to be taking away 'happy accident' possibilities(you know, when you stuff up, and just decide to start over, and finish with something you like more than the idea you were working on and buggered up).

Also, in terms of large production runs, the 'master' copy, being digital, shouldn't be degraded if you need to recast a mould. Though that might have meant the Netherlord MkII might not have come along when it did.

Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.

[mcfonz]

TBH, I think that what this sort of process really needs is a refinement of the whole scultor/model interface. All the elements are around somewhere, they just need to be combined properly.
The input device requires the give some feedback - and things that do that are in use. But I think you need to combine that with some of the 3D display devices that are starting to become viable for home use. Add to that the ability to rotate the model through 3 axes, and the ability to control your zoom, lighting etc(and, of course, the abilty to undo actions with a keystroke), and it becomes not unlike actual modelling.

Of course, that might be seen to be taking away 'happy accident' possibilities(you know, when you stuff up, and just decide to start over, and finish with something you like more than the idea you were working on and buggered up).

Also, in terms of large production runs, the 'master' copy, being digital, shouldn't be degraded if you need to recast a mould. Though that might have meant the Netherlord MkII might not have come along when it did.

Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.

At the end of the day though, for boutique miniature companies I am not sure it is all that pheasable. I say that because for units of troops etc or groups of figures that you want to have look similar it works. But when it comes down to individual models you are really arguing the cost of greenstuff etc over the materials used to 'print' out the master.

The problem with this is that sometimes 'test' parts are done and again cost wise is it cheaper to do it in digital 3d printing or greenstuff.

As for masters being degraded - if you PC gets a virus or it randomly decides your file is corrupted you are just as screwed!

I really do see the strengths and weaknesses but I think its more for the mass production in terms of near future. When the costs of the programmes, materials etc drop then perhaps we will see more change, right now - and I think for the next couple of years, it doesn't really suit smaller companies that produce 'character' models rather than units of models.

[Bergil]

I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind making use of a program like Zbrush to sculpt little dudes. Problem is though I just get my head around all that needs to be done in these programs just to get a sphere, let alone an awesome looking monster!

I'll stick to the old fashioned ways for now methinks.

[Chris_M]

Just like sports I guess, famous sportspeople usually excel at one sport but definately have talents in other sports too. Just the same as putty modelling and computer modelling

Agreed - there were certainly a bunch of golfers masquerading as the England football team in South Africa last month.

The future wont be designing it with a PC it will be to accurately scan in hand sculpted models that the electronic system can absorb and produce / scale to a 3 up etc.

That's where I see it - sculpt the basic model normally, 3d scan it, manipulate the scanned image to fine tune it, create variants and so on, email the file off to the manufacturers who quickly produce a prototype master at their end, send it back to you for approval and then use a second master to generate the regular moulds. (What happens if, heaven forbid it actually happening, the post office lose the master, or it gets broken?)

Send a file, and if it doesn't get there, you can just try again.

Or having a virtual armature already loaded in which you then bend around the joints, add coarse to medium detail onto, print out and sculpt the fine detail normally before sending off as a master like now, saving you the initial time and effort of having to do things like sculpt on the musculature. If you can also load in iconography, or large detail items (standard weapons for example), and manipulate them, then even better.

Would also make it easier when a model starts off as a normal human, but halfway through struggling with it, you realise that it would be much better as, say, someone of masai descent. Rather than restarting, you could just rescale and trim out the musculature accordingly.

Agree we're a long way off, but it's certainly something interesting, and once the resolution issues are sorted and it becomes cheaper, I doubt it'll be too long before someone's become a new FoD company doing it that way - although I can see some people being very snobbish about it initially ("he's not a sculptor, he's a code hacker sailing under false colours" ).

[Thantos]

Bah Im a small business starting and hoping to make use of this - let me know if anyone spies a 3d printing company with more detail than 0.2mm lazer.
Print it out for £120, send it to the caster to make moulds - why wouldnt that be available to small business? 
You just have to adjust your usual modeling methods so that your object is "water tight" has few gaps, uses pure polys for details and not mapping and simplified out a bit.

[MightyAl]

At the end of the day though, for boutique miniature companies I am not sure it is all that pheasable. I say that because for units of troops etc or groups of figures that you want to have look similar it works. But when it comes down to individual models you are really arguing the cost of greenstuff etc over the materials used to 'print' out the master.

The problem with this is that sometimes 'test' parts are done and again cost wise is it cheaper to do it in digital 3d printing or greenstuff.

As for masters being degraded - if you PC gets a virus or it randomly decides your file is corrupted you are just as screwed!

I really do see the strengths and weaknesses but I think its more for the mass production in terms of near future. When the costs of the programmes, materials etc drop then perhaps we will see more change, right now - and I think for the next couple of years, it doesn't really suit smaller companies that produce 'character' models rather than units of models.

True, but that's why you have backups, or off-site storage. I can remember thinking it was a big deal when you'd get 5MB of webspace from your provider - my email account now lets me store something like 10GB, so storing data remotely(as long as you're not looking to store in the 100's of GB) pretty much free, if you're already paying for broadband, and pretty secure.