Ranged Rules - Playtest

[Carcharoth]

The following set of rules are fairly well developed, but are in need of a fair bit more playtesting to iron out kinks in the wording, and to make everything slightly clearer. The rules for Line of Sight and Obstructions are the same as in the original rules.
I would definitely appreciate any thoughts on these, particularly if anybody gets a chance to playtest them!

Edits:
06/01/10 Decreased the strength of the staff sling from 3CS to 2CS.
07/01/10 Adjusted the Shield rule to only impact specific units.

Ranged Combat

Basic Rules
Ranged Combat abilities are used during a model’s activation and replace the model’s standard movement.  When making a ranged combat attack you first select one or more targets that are within Line of Sight of the attacker. The ability will specify how many combat stones are cast for the attack.
Most models have a basic ranged defence of two combat stones, plus an additional stone if it is obstructed. Certain skills (such as agile) may allow the target to cast more stones in defence.
The combat is fought in the same manner as normal, but the attacker may not use combat abilities, and the target cannot land any blows on the attacker. The target may however choose to use any combat abilities it has, expending stamina if necessary.
Specials
Engaged: If the target is engaged with an enemy model then it always counts as obstructed. If the attacker and defender cast the same number of successful stones, then it is possible that the engaging model has been hit. Fight an additional combat against the engaging model. If there are several engaging models then randomise which model may get hit.
Cumbersome: Cumbersome attacks cannot be made if the model is engaged at any point during its activation.
Agile: All Devanu have the ‘Agile’ ability. This gives them an additional combat stone in defence against ranged attacks.
Pavise: If a model is equipped with a pavise then it is always considered to be obstructed if it is targeted by a ranged attack. (note that no models currently carry Pavises, but this gives an example of how the rules in the future)
Blasts: Some Ranged Combat abilities are blast attacks. These use a blast template to determine what targets are attacked. Place the template so that it touches the attackers base. All models under the template become targets. Fight the combats using the rules above. Note that the attacker chooses the order of the combats, and that no model can be the target of the same attack more than once. If a model is touched by both long edges of the template then it is considered to be caught ‘Full Blast’, and may suffer additional effects. The blast template is a triangular template 5” long and 2” wide at the widest point.

Additional Rules
One additional rule that I plan to add to the game is going to have a snazzy name like 'Four Degrees of Separation', but I'm not sure of that yet. The rule will have little effect, except when a player chooses to take a large number of models with either Cadre or Pack (Striders, Herders and Grishak) as they will have to take more care with the Command Structure than is currently the case. I expect the following rules will need rewording, but are at least a start!
Four Degrees of Separation: During an activation you may only string together a maximum of four Command Abilities.
As an example, Roban is activated. He then uses Commander to activate a Priest and a Strider [CA1]. The Priest then activates four soldiers [CA2], who in turn activate four soldiers each [CA3]. The Strider activates another Strider using Cadre [CA2], who then activates another Strider [CA3], who then activates another Strider [CA4]. The final Strider is unable to use his Cadre ability as there has already been a string of four Command Abilities.
If a Strider had been activated originally, then it would have been possible to activate a further four Striders using Cadre, allowing a total of five Striders to be activated.

Herders - Troops

Move: 6
Combat: 1
Support: 1
Tough: 6+
Stamina: 0
Size: Small

Cadre [CA]: Activate up to one friendly model with the Cadre ability.
Command Range: 6”
Staff Sling [RC]: Move up to 3” then make a 2CS range attack against one target within 18”. The Staff Sling is Cumbersome.
 
Delgon Derakeer - Troops

Move: 6
Combat: 1
Support: 0
Tough: 5+
Stamina: 0
Size: Small

Command Range: 0.5”
Light Derak [RC]: Move up to 3” then make a 3CS blast range attack. Cast an additional stone for any models that are caught Full Blast. The Derak is Cumbersome.

Point estimates:
Both the Herder and the Derakeer work out at about 15pts-20pts a piece. I think the Derakeer is slightly more powerful, so I've been playing them at 15pts for a Herder and 20pts for a Derakeer.

[dequant]

This weekend I'm going to play Twilight: I'd convinced a friend to test it(we're going to use lizardmen minis from a well-known company). I'll try these rules this weekend. 

[dequant]

I suggest the following change (in red) I will try this this weekend

Experimental Derak: (RC) If the Engineer does not Move, and is not Engaged then it may fire its Derak during its activation.

Select a target that is within Line of Sight Immediately make a 5CS blast  range attack. Cast an additional stone for any models that are caught Full Blast. The derak is Cubersome.

 The target receives one Support if the Line of Sight was partialloy Obstructed. If there are any models Adjacent to the target model, then fight additional combats as above, but using only 4 Erac.

ABOUT SHIELDS:
The following
Shields: If a model is equipped with a shield then it is always considered to be obstructed if it is targeted by a ranged attack. Does not make sense (for me) I suggest the following

Shields: If a model is equipped with a shield then add +1 to the saving dice roll. As an example, a Fubarni Enuk Knight Capitain equipped with a Shield get a 3 in his saving roll, he survived the Blow, If he didn't had a shield, then the model is removed from play as
a casualty.

[Jubal]

Well... WoT really hasn't had much in the way of unviersal equipment specific rules up until now, so I'd leave off making shields a wargear item a la dequant's idea. The simplest thing might me to replace "shield" with "pavise", the latter being much more an iterm in the role you describe.

Looking at the rest of the rules, the herders do look pretty powerful for 15 points. A 3CS attack, particularly considering it's 3 erac, has a good chance of taking down the majority of non-elite troops; delgon soldiers, priests, acolytes and derakeers, fubarnii militia and engineers and herders, and even knights and grishak would probably be pretty susceptible to that sort of firepower. Thusly I'd knock it down to being 2CS, or make them a definite 20pts; despite the Delgon deraks being more killy, an 18" range is never to be sniffed at as the herders will get in a lot more shots than their delgon foes.

I'd also boost the blast template range to 6", or it'll be too easy to sit foot troops just out of range where they can then potentially charge really easily.

[Rick]

I agree with keeping the shield rules as they are, with the proviso that you can only count being obstructed once. I like the ranged combat rules, except for 1 thing - they don't really represent the inaccuracy of fubarnii sling fire for me. Could I be really cheeky and suggest slings and staff slings also have the inaccurate special rule - "once a target has been chosen, roll a d6 - on a 4+ it hits another model within 4" (possibly 6")" Or is this just making things much more complicated than necessary?

[Carcharoth]

Ta for the feedback so far - very useful. Don't feel at all worried about suggesting ideas!

Firstly, shields. I do want them to have an effect rather than simply impacting the tough save - that benefit is captured already in the saves for the Knights. The effectiveness of shields against ranged attacks seems to be often under-represented in wargames, and I wanted to try and represent that. Possibly the shield rule should be a more unit-specific ability rather than a generic rule, for infantry carrying heavy shields (Pavises) rather than for units with small shields like the knights (who are admitedly the only shield-armed models to date). As Rick has noted, a model is either obstructed or not, you can't be obstructed more than once.

I had been considering whether slings should be 3 or 2 stones, and have tried both. With 2 stones there is about a 1/3 (5/16) chance of landing a blow against a standard trooper, which is probably about right. The probability of landing one or more blows on an obstructed or agile unit is about 1/5 (3/16). Again, that probably isn't too far off.
I think that is actually the variant I was thinking of at 15pts. You need more to make them effective, and we actually found that they struggled to have much impact against Devanu (hence the low points). Upping that to 3 erac does make them more elite, and that would have to be reflected in the points. I've adjusted the initial rules to drop them to 2 stones.

Don't forget that the derak is move and fire, but I'll think about the size of the template as 6" is also a more typical distance within the game. The deraks are scary at 5" range, so an additional 1" will have quite an effect - it'll also increase the effective range of 'full blast'.

Inaccurate. I played around with some variants along these lines, but couldn't come up with a suitably elegant solution, and decided to stick with the simpler option. I'm open to more ideas though!

Experimental derak. If you want to playtest it I would go for 4CS rather than 5CS, and not bother with the other additional rule (already captured by the blast template). At 5CS it would be an almost instant kill against Devanu - don't forget they are rolling 3 or 4 CS in defence rather than the 5 or 6 using the original rules.

[Jubal]

The knights' shields wouldn't be great against shooting really, as if the shooter had any sense they'd just go for the less armoured Enuk. I agree with Pavises being a unit-specific rule.

The lack of impact against Devanu I would expect; they're basically farmers, after all, they can't really be expected to take down a hugely agile beasty of terrible doom.

don't forget they are rolling 3 or 4 CS in defence rather than the 5 or 6 using the original rules.

Why is this?

[Carcharoth]

don't forget they are rolling 3 or 4 CS in defence rather than the 5 or 6 using the original rules.

Why is this?

"Most models have a basic ranged defence of two combat stones, plus an additional stone if it is obstructed. Certain skills (such as agile) may allow the target to cast more stones in defence."

This is one of the key changes to the ranged rules. For the experimental derak I simply used the defending model's normal combat. This worked well for the original scenarios, but for more generic ranged rules it wasn't going to be practical to balance. Besides, a models prowess in combat doesn't necessarilly determine how hard they are to hit at range. I then played around with simply having a new stat, and found that in nearly every case a defence stat of 2 stones fit the bill, with a few notable exceptions (eg Devanu). Rather than simply giving every model the same stat I figured it might be neatest to have a standard defence, and note when a model differs from that.
 
With the old rules a Devanu would have had 5 (Sempa) or 6 (Devanu) defence while a grishak would only have had 2. To balance that, the Derak cast a lot more stones in attack. In these rules the Devanu would cast 3 stones (4 if obstructed) and a grishak would still cast 2.

they can't really be expected to take down a hugely agile beasty of terrible doom.

[dequant]

Experimental derak. If you want to playtest it I would go for 4CS rather than 5CS, and not bother with the other additional rule (already captured by the blast template). At 5CS it would be an almost instant kill against Devanu - don't forget they are rolling 3 or 4 CS in defence rather than the 5 or 6 using the original rules.

Do you mean the " The target receives one Support if the Line of Sight was partialloy Obstructed. If there are any models Adjacent to the target model, then fight additional combats as above, but using only 4 Erac. " entry?

Yesterday (it was a holiday in spain) some friends & I was talking about rules, Twilight among them, so this week end, instead a normabattle between 2 friends, we'll going to make a mega battle.

We, are going to test what I suggested & some ideas that I've got (thanks to the Ranged rules playtest) to try.

One of them is the experimental derak, I've updated it a bit but I'll try what I posted above ( version 1) and a version 2 :

Experimental(heavy) Derak [RC Blast]: If the Engineer does not Move, and is not Engaged then it may fire its Derak during its activation.
Select a target that is within Line of Sight & within 22".

Immediately make a 4CS Circular blast range attack. Cast an additional stone for any models that are caught Full Blast.

The derak is Cubersome.

The Circular Blast Template is 2" in diameter


Also I'll try some wierd ideas like a Slaimor Pack rules ( Maximum 3 packs -1 Handler+ 2 Slaimor= 100 pts) or rules for using Belderaks (Large artillery weapon.). this can be a powerfull weapon if mounted on a Baruk , or can be fixed (can't move)

Now here's a idea I've got about sizes & line of Sight



Line of Sight & Model Size

If a model is within Line of Sight, but there are other models with equal o bigger size  or scenery that obstruct visibility of any part of the model then the Line of Sight is Obstructed.

Example: If a trader(small) is a target & a baruk (medium) is front of him, then the Line of Sight is Obstructed. If the baruk (medium) is a target & trader(small) is front of it, then the Line of Sight is not Obstructed.

If a model is within Line of Sight, but there are scenery that obstruct visibility of any part of the model then the Line of Sight is Obstructed.


I've tested it with the old Ranged Rules & worked well.  You can even chose target. But sometimes it's hard to choose what: that hapened to me. My deraks had to choose between grishaks or their handler (a sempa who was behind them) I'd shoot the grishaks but the sempa killed me.

[Jubal]

Okay, that makes sense now. Shooting's nevertheless very potent against tough troops and elites, looks like.

dequant, your mortar/derak type thingy looks kinda powerful, it's basically light artillery... I'm not sure why the Fubarnii would have developed such a thing, considering they've never really done much symmetric warfare. Also, something as powerful as that would a) likely be REALLY inaccurate considering Fubarnii have such bad eyesight and b) be too big for one poor little engineer to move.

I'm fiddling with some ideas of my own as far as the Imperial engineers go, you'll be seeing those soon.

[Carcharoth]

My aim has always been that shooting should be reasonably effective, but not imbalanced.

Shifting into stats mode... With the rules as they stand there's about a 1 in 6 chance of killing a Knight in the open with a staff sling (1/3 chance of hitting, then 1/2 chance to kill). However, with Combat Trained the odds of survival increase dramatically. A devanu will be forced to expend Stamina to avoid a blow about 19% of the time. Annoying, but probably not critical most of the time. A Grishak is the same as a knight, but with no recasts. Delgon soldiers would die about 21% of the time.

That all needs further playtesting to see how they actually play, but there is the risk that the herders might struggle to prove their worth, and may need their points reduced further. At the moment I think a small unit of 4 or 5 would be interesting to try. The fact that they can activate without an expensive captain will also improve their value.

dequant's Engineer variant looks more like a belderak type weapon. Feel free to try it out, but I expect it would be rather too effective as it is, and possibly a bit out of character for the crazy old engineer. For the belderak I would want to work out some neat scatter rules rather than a neat hit or miss, but those can wait a bit. They would also be more likely to be seen in the hands of the Delgon than the Empire.

Let me know what you come up with for the slaimor - I must admit that that stinky fella had slipped my mind!
Line of Sight? That coule make sense, but I might just implement that if there are two sizes between the models (only relevant if a small model is in front of a large (or larger) model).

As for Jubal's engineering hints - you are a tease!

[dequant]

This weekend I've playtested the range rules plus other rules.


You rules worked well & it's well ballanced.

In the following post http://forum-of-doom.com/index.php?topic=12431.0 there's my more comments about the ranged rules & some rules I've made.