Author Topic: Codex: Demiurg Warhost  (Read 37408 times)

Offline caerban

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2009, 04:49:42 PM »
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I was somewhat surprised as with a couple of notable exceptions we share very similar views on much science fiction and gaming (walking robots being our main divergence of view.)

But giant walking robots are cool...

Right yup until enemy fire disables the walking function...  Either by Entaglement or dismemberment.

Remove a leg and your bi-pod walking robot/machine is down.

True but is not also the same true of a tank or hummer? Blow out a track or knock off a wheel and they're just a static rocket magnet.
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2009, 05:10:22 PM »
BUT bikes really do have their uses (dispatch riders, scout bikers, etc...) but only as a means to get somewhere fast and dismount to do the mission.
Agreed

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Trikes, if built correctly can be just as effective as many of the available buggies/jeeps but in a strict argument, you are right...four wheels are better than three...but reverse trikes really do look cool ;).
Problem is as soon as you put a fixed axle in front or back oyu either need a diff or you need steering rack - both are expensive and complex (compared to a motorbike) and heavy so you can't use a chain drive (certainly not rough terrain) you need a propshaft... by the time you've done all that you need a bigger engine with more power and you've practically built a buggy anyway! :)

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The Codex is an attempt to update and expand on an old army and the old army had all sorts of interesting equipment in it...including Exo-armoured trike riders, mole mortars, Dwarf Psykers (wrong on so many levels), robots and the like...and so far, it is doing a good job of it. 

I may not agree with the whole 'hog-riding Dwarf' thing BUT it is in the spirit of the original Space Dwarf lists so if that is the direction he's aiming then all credit to him.

I haven't read it - i wouldn't be able to pass meaningful comment on whether it fitted 40k or not. I wasn't nor would i pass comment on how accurate/suitable a list it was...

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As for giant walking robots, they are a flawed concept on so many levels...but I just think they are fantastic and I can't give you a good reason or scientific answer to explain why...so they must have been made by a magician or something ;).

Quitter!

Now why do I like Bikes.

I like the idea of fast, agile units.  Now this is of course limited to specific uses.  As INSO points out, good for scouts and diversions...  But not practical for massed charges, but its a case of the right tool for the right job.  You wouldn't make a massed Bike cavalry charge across an open battlefield.  But they would be excellent harrasment units for an enemy in a canyon system or urban warfare.

That said the idea of a motorbike mounted rough-rider massed charge akin to the battle of Pelenor fields does spark a couple of cool-looking mental images, even if it is ruined a moment later by a Napoleonic-style massed volley fire...

Well said.
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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2009, 05:14:47 PM »
What veiled attacks? I was not aware of any. In any case, I apologize if something I said was miscontrued as an attack - it was not my intention and I apologize if anything I said seemed to be such.

As for the vulnerability of walkers; yes, they are JUST as vulnerable as wheeled vehicles. And possibly more so - because a tank cannot step over a landmine, nor can a tank effectively run, jump, crouch or climb in a human manner. A humanoid fighting machine CAN. And a machine with lots of legs can do so very effectively.

The issue is that a walked vehicle has size issues which tracked ones do not, and that the software involved in controlling it is very complicated and sophisticated - certainly not cost-effective with today's technology. And certainly not effective over a very limited size. Remember; a humanoid vehicle which is the same size as a man controlled by telepresence is a mech by another other name - and DARPA is very interested in these!

As for bikes and trikes; where did I EVERY say they weren't a ludicrous idea? Of course they are a ludicrous idea - but in 40K, ludicrous is the oil that makes stuff move.

Look, Brandlin - I get your point. You object to sci-fi without a certain degree of realism - as do we all, but everyone's stance is different. You think that trikes are a silly idea in a military force except for very limited uses (dispatch riders etc.) I agree completely. I also think that an army made entirely of nuns with powered armor designed like bondage gear and armed with rapid-firing mini-missile launchers and combat-microwave ovens is a ludicous idea. It is also HELLISH AWESOME!!!111111 on an aesthetic level and I have a Sisters of Battle army.

And 40K is a game of style over substance. It is not a game designed to be appealing to people like you.

Hence, your question is impossible to answer honestly and within the limits you pose. You know people include them in their armies because "trikes are cool" but then refuse to recognise WHY they are cool. You say "they are not cool" without even hearing why someone might like them. You define coolness very narrowly (or, rather, negatively reject certain things as "not cool", i.e. unrealistic things which do not make reference to military strategy and / or physics).

So, I suppose the answer to the question would be;

"People include trikes in their armies because they appeal to a sense of aesthetics and imagery which is not shared by Brandlin and others. This sense of aesthetics is, in fact, anathema to Brandlin and others. People who like trikes in their armies are not looking for something realistic, but rather something which fits to THEIR definition of cool. This definition is cool is so opposed to Brandlin's definition that he is unwilling to conceive of it as possibly cool."

People just have radically different views on what is cool. You know what? I think humanoid aliens in a hard sci-fi world are absolutely ridiculous (in fact, I think ANY aliens in hard sci-fi is an idiotic choice) but I understand why people want them - because they think they are cool. I don't agree, but I can understand.

Asking the question but limiting the possible responses pre-emptively was what got this thing started and made it heated. Again, I am sorry if I offended or upset you - it wasn't my intention. I wanted to point out your initial question and the limits you posed were unfair and rendered the question unable to be answered.

Offline Inso

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2009, 05:39:00 PM »
Trikes:  No engine, no gearbox, no propshaft.

Central power source, electric motor on each wheel hub.  Depending on the steering angle of the front wheels, depends on what voltage is kicked out after being put through the potentiometer linked to the steering column, thus negating the need for a differential and only using a simple coil of wire.  No need for a gearbox, all those pistony bits gone and as complicated as an electric version of a four wheeled version.

A trike has three wheels, yes?  So does a steam roller!  there is nothing to say that the single wheel can't be much wider than the pair of wheels at the other end and if the single wheel was well structured and the width of the vehicle it may end up more stable than a four wheeler (and have a lot more grip, if nothing else.

Electric power awesomeness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUXhJZZRUIg&feature=related

Awesome looking Trike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpE_EkeVwWM&feature=related

Mix them up...electric awesomeness.  Using the awesome power of Sci-fi, it could be powered by a dilithium crystal in a box the size of a tennis ball and have the energy to power the trike forever...

...A little bit of practical science fiction ;)
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2009, 06:48:16 PM »
Inso. There is a long response and a short response to your proposal.

Which would you like?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:06:23 PM by Brandlin »
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Offline gi6ers

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2009, 06:49:48 PM »
short please.

Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2009, 07:09:42 PM »
lol gi6ers i wasn't asking you!

OK short it is... (well, shortish)

For the purposes of debate I’ll be generous. I'll let you have unlimited energy and you can have all of the technologies necessarily to create the trike as Inso described.

Now I’m going to use all of those same technologies and use them to build a small 4 wheeled buggy.  The 4 wheeled one would have basically the same rectangular footprint and maximum width as the trike so It’s not that much different in payload terms to a trike (say for air drops or stacking them in transit). It has 4/3rds of the maximum payload of the trike (4 wheel hubs not 3) 4/3rds the motive energy. It has more carrying volume.  It’ll have 4/3rds the grip and traction. Admittedly the buggy would be more expensive but not 4/3rds more as you’re only adding another wheel and motor, and some chassis…

Now, other than reasons of aesthetics, tell me why you would use all those technologies to build a trike instead of a 4 wheeled vehicle?


The problem you have is that you're TRYING to design and justify a trike, when it isn't the most effective configuration from an engineering sense - that's why you don't see many. So a 4 wheeler will always win because they are more efficient and effective in engineering terms.

What you need to do is have a need that can only be satisfied by a trike not by a 4 wheeled vehicle and design to that need.  I cannot think of one though.

If anyone is interested the long answer is available - just send a stamped addressed envelope.

"So far in begging stakes Brandlin is waaay ahead with his grav bike"  -  Sally 8/10/08

Offline DanG

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2009, 07:25:43 PM »
What you need to do is have a need that can only be satisfied by a trike not by a 4 wheeled vehicle and design to that need.  I cannot think of one though.

This is, ironically, the justification for the Bike...

Because there will be instances when you need speed and maneuverability, and perhaps in such terrain to require a narrow vehicle where 4-wheels would present too wide a footprint to pass.  And such terrain may be defended against arial transportation SAMs.

Of course you COULD just send a platoon of men, and they would be more covert, due to reduced noice and disturbance...  But if speed is also a factor...

The right tools for the right job.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/engineering/1506.aspx
There is a reason that all armies today still have motorcycle detachments, despite your personal objections!   :angel: :whistle:
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:27:30 PM by DanG »
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Offline Inso

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2009, 07:52:10 PM »
@Brandlin:

...I can only get hold of three tyres  :twisted:?

...I only have a small, triangular parking space  :angel:?

...The highest number I can count to is three  :paranoid:?

...Speed (three points of contact, less friction...assuming that the grip of three tyres is adequate to equate to that of four when worked out as a ratio between grip and friction), also there is the power to weight ratio.  

...Role - Speed and agility NOT load carrying.

Apart from aesthetics, there is very little justification for choosing a trike over a quad of some description but I would also say that the fun aspect has to come into it.  Being a driver and motorcyclist, I know what I'd rather be driving and it would be a bike/trike.  They are much more fun to drive than a car (in my own experience)...apart from that I can't think of any other reasons but for the one thing all this 'justify this' and 'justify that' going on at the moment doesn't take into account...we are talking about games here (yes, we really are talking about games  :yup:) and games are supposed to be fun.  Whether or not there is reality doesn't actually matter too much.  We are grown men and women playing with toys...that is just about as absurd as giant walking robots and knights with lances riding motorbikes  :lmao:!

One of the reasons I enjoy the sci-fi genre so much is that I DON'T have to justify things like 'that is the mk 16 jacket, it should have 5 toggles and not a zip...Jane's book of military equipment clearly shows...etc...' like so many of the historical crowd would explain in intimate detail...but if that is your bag, then please enjoy  :whistle:.

I like to know that my sci-fi is possible (technically) but when things come to efficiency I would rarely even think of it.  Why have a four wheeled car when you can have a cool looking trike?  Yes, it may be less efficient than a four wheeled variant BUT when I am racing my squad of Grymn in trikes around the table, I am thinking how much fun it would be to do the same (yes, back in the days of wargaming, I used to actually get emotionally attached to my armies/role playing characters...that is what the whole experience was about wasn't it...suspending reality for a while?)...I don't get bogged down in technicalities because I can do that just by going to work...

Have we done trikes to death yet?  

Have we?

Can we move onto the absurdity of 'Mole Mortars' now?  

What about giant tracked housing estates...sorry Leviathans?

Don't even get me started on Zombies... :shrug:...come on, what is that all about?..being dead but NOT?

I'll tell you what, with all this 'debating' going on it has started to feel a bit like the Napoleonic boards over at TMP  :lol:!



« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:53:19 PM by Inso »
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2009, 07:55:27 PM »
What you need to do is have a need that can only be satisfied by a trike not by a 4 wheeled vehicle and design to that need.  I cannot think of one though.

This is, ironically, the justification for the Bike...

Because there will be instances when you need speed and maneuverability, and perhaps in such terrain to require a narrow vehicle where 4-wheels would present too wide a footprint to pass.  And such terrain may be defended against arial transportation SAMs.


Oh, I agree.

And there you have the rapid transport scout role we all seem to agree on. Its not the definition of an assault bike though.

Quote

Of course you COULD just send a platoon of men, and they would be more covert, due to reduced noice and disturbance...  But if speed is also a factor...

The right tools for the right job.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/engineering/1506.aspx
There is a reason that all armies today still have motorcycle detachments, despite your personal objections!   :angel: :whistle:

I dont have a personal objection to Bikes. I've repeatedly said that as rapid transit scouting forwards deployment even signalling they have a role. But the bike you link to is designed and used for that purpose. It doesn't have a 3 inch slab of armour plate on it, a wheel so wide you couldn't turn it and twin mounted blasters alongside the front hub with no discernable place for any ammunition.

My whole objection is to the idea of armoured assault bikes/trikes.

As to current british military units: The RAF maintains the red arrows too, and there's a motorcycle display team and the guys from the Army navy and marines that do the field gun run at the royal show each year, plus there's the marching mands and the household cavalry. Shall we cover them all in armour plate and send them to the front line too?

"So far in begging stakes Brandlin is waaay ahead with his grav bike"  -  Sally 8/10/08

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2009, 08:03:03 PM »
and the link explains that there used for scouting/ despatch carrying not combat...... ( didnt we have this arugument abought 12 -18 months ago?)   :yup:

mechs have several problems, the height one, the taller the mech the furhter it can be seen from, and in a battle field with laser wepons, thats not good news, as a laser is near instantaius over short distance and a small low carryer will be able to hide in lots of places, and when the mech crosses its horizon, it can see, and target/fire. Its why modern tanks try not to be tall, hight makes you vunrable.
      the next problem is ground pressure, how big are you going to make you mechs feet?  A tracked vehicle spreads its load across the contact area of the track and the ground you need to make the mechs feet cover the same area or itll bog down, ( read some comparasons of the T34 and greman tanks of the same period, the T34s tracks gave a lower ground pressure giving better mobilty over boggy area.  Or the scorpian CVRTs in the Falklands where they had sufficantyly low ground pressure that they were able to travel over peat bogs that when one of the crew dismounted swallowed him up to his knees)
  Darknights point that a machine with lots of legs is more agile, is a possibility, but any machine has to cope with inertia, and trying to turn quickly will still have to deal with that, and if it has more than 2 legs it does make "human" manuver tactics very difficult, ( i humbly point at the Manga by Shirow specifcly the appleseed series). I now seem to be having problems observing what i type so ill stop here.
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Offline DanG

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2009, 08:05:41 PM »
As to current british military units: The RAF maintains the red arrows too, and there's a motorcycle display team and the guys from the Army navy and marines that do the field gun run at the royal show each year, plus there's the marching mands and the household cavalry. Shall we cover them all in armour plate and send them to the front line too?

I was under the impression that in every single one of those examples, having been drawn from the service...  That this was exactly what we do?

The Household Cavalry doubly so...  Seeing as how on deployment they swap the horses for tanks (thus covered in armour and sent to the front line as per your suggestion)...

And of the day.  If you are in the army I think you are army (navy or air-force) first and fancy recruiting tool second.

INSO.  Is this the case?
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Offline Steel Penguin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2009, 08:07:17 PM »
and ill add one part anwser to Bradlin re the red arrows.
they fly Hawk "trainers" yes,  with the smoke generators in that centraly mounted pod yes?
During a general war sinareo the hawk is tasked with close air defense carrying sidewinder AAMs and that central pod is where the gun goes to give dogfighting cabability,
the household cavalry is tasked with reconasance in the CVRT systems ( scorpian etc) the horse guard and parade dutys are just part of its role, they are fully combat capable troops.
( this given in a sort of balance to my above post)
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Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2009, 08:11:14 PM »
@Brandlin:

...I can only get hold of three tyres  :twisted:?
...I only have a small, triangular parking space  :angel:?
...The highest number I can count to is three  :paranoid:?
All three of these answers suggest you are intimately familiar with RAF stations!

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...Speed (three points of contact, less friction...assuming that the grip of three tyres is adequate to equate to that of four when worked out as a ratio between grip and friction), also there is the power to weight ratio. 
Rolling friction/resistance is much less of an issue than grip especially offroad.

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...Role - Speed and agility NOT load carrying.
Why would a trike be any faster than a 4 wheeled buggy. True it might be lighter but i've got 4 motors running 4 wheels so i have 4/3rds of your power. and probably not 4/3rds of the weight.  with better grip shoould wheel spin less which is more boring but also better acceleration.

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Apart from aesthetics, there is very little justification for choosing a trike over a quad of some description but I would also say that the fun aspect has to come into it.  Being a driver and motorcyclist, I know what I'd rather be driving and it would be a bike/trike.  They are much more fun to drive than a car (in my own experience)...apart from that I can't think of any other reasons
Oh i agree they are waaaay more fun. Lets tell the tax payers we're buying the army trikes cos the drivers are bored with tanks ! lol

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but for the one thing all this 'justify this' and 'justify that' going on at the moment doesn't take into account...we are talking about games here (yes, we really are talking about games  :yup:) and games are supposed to be fun.  Whether or not there is reality doesn't actually matter too much.  We are grown men and women playing with toys...that is just about as absurd as giant walking robots and knights with lances riding motorbikes  :lmao:!

I think it does matter. not to the lengths expressed here though ... (including by me.)

I once played a game where my scifi force was split in two, and i was trying to call in off planetary air strikes from plasma cannons and such like but i couldn't because the weather dice decided that it was foggy so i was cut off from communications. a little internal consistency would be nice.

Quote
One of the reasons I enjoy the sci-fi genre so much is that I DON'T have to justify things like 'that is the mk 16 jacket, it should have 5 toggles and not a zip...Jane's book of military equipment clearly shows...etc...' like so many of the historical crowd would explain in intimate detail...but if that is your bag, then please enjoy  :whistle:.

Lol i dont think we've quoted janes. I certainly wouldn't they're often inaccurate :whistle:
And i'm happy to suspend disbelief. we all have different levels of believable i guess.
Quote

I like to know that my sci-fi is possible (technically) but when things come to efficiency I would rarely even think of it.  Why have a four wheeled car when you can have a cool looking trike?  Yes, it may be less efficient than a four wheeled variant BUT when I am racing my squad of Grymn in trikes around the table, I am thinking how much fun it would be to do the same (yes, back in the days of wargaming, I used to actually get emotionally attached to my armies/role playing characters...that is what the whole experience was about wasn't it...suspending reality for a while?)...I don't get bogged down in technicalities because I can do that just by going to work...

Have we done trikes to death yet? 

Have we?
Only if you denounce walking robots :)

Quote

Can we move onto the absurdity of 'Mole Mortars' now? 

What about giant tracked housing estates...sorry Leviathans?

Don't even get me started on Zombies... :shrug:...come on, what is that all about?..being dead but NOT?

I'll tell you what, with all this 'debating' going on it has started to feel a bit like the Napoleonic boards over at TMP  :lol:!

Yup, I'm with you on all of the above!


"So far in begging stakes Brandlin is waaay ahead with his grav bike"  -  Sally 8/10/08

Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2009, 08:17:28 PM »
As to current british military units: The RAF maintains the red arrows too, and there's a motorcycle display team and the guys from the Army navy and marines that do the field gun run at the royal show each year, plus there's the marching mands and the household cavalry. Shall we cover them all in armour plate and send them to the front line too?

I was under the impression that in every single one of those examples, having been drawn from the service...  That this was exactly what we do?

The Household Cavalry doubly so...  Seeing as how on deployment they swap the horses for tanks (thus covered in armour and sent to the front line as per your suggestion)...

And of the day.  If you are in the army I think you are army (navy or air-force) first and fancy recruiting tool second.

INSO.  Is this the case?

Yes its the case, but that's my point.

We DONT send the household cavalry into the front line riding horses with shields. And if the red arrows pilots are called back to their squadrons, then they get green planes with guns in them to use. The gun teams from the royal tournament get proper arillery not horse drawn limbers and muzzle loading cannon.

Just like steel penguin says They get the right equipment for the job.

So in your example of the motor bike units they get dirt bikes for mobility and speed and get used on scout missions.  We don't bolt guns and armour on the bikes and expect them to assault tanks on open gorund.
"So far in begging stakes Brandlin is waaay ahead with his grav bike"  -  Sally 8/10/08

Offline Brandlin

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2009, 08:20:12 PM »
and ill add one part anwser to Bradlin re the red arrows.
they fly Hawk "trainers" yes, 

Yes Mk1's

The aircraft are useless in a combat role as they've had none of the csoftware upgrades applied to the front line hawks used in other countries (india, australia indonesian canada) or even in line with training jets in the RAF. No point upgrading the fire control systems on an aircraft without any weapons to fire.

You'd have to do a complete refit of the red arrow hawks to make them anything like fight-capable - including replacing some fuselage sections - take you a few months at least.
"So far in begging stakes Brandlin is waaay ahead with his grav bike"  -  Sally 8/10/08

Offline Inso

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2009, 08:23:53 PM »
@steelpenguin:  Sometimes it seems we're more 'poster boy' than serviceman!

@Brandlin:  Sorry but with all the robot kits I've got, I don't think I could say to my wife 'I have denounced giant robots so I'll have to get rid of these' without sleeping on the lawn with all my possessions for wasting 'all that money' :mrgreen:

...were we actually bleating about assault bikes/trikes?  I got so bogged down in all the 'debate' that I just thought we were talking about bikes in general...how easy it is to get lost when the path is so confusing ;)

Is there going to be any danger of us all getting back to the original topic at any point soon?  If not, can I start the bingo?

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Offline Inso

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2009, 08:28:08 PM »
Oh...the RAF has a war role for all of its aircraft...even if it is just for spotting/recon.  Even the Grobs...

I once heard of a Hercules shooting down an F16 during a joint exercise (it was just laser tagging).  The crew rigged up a laser designator and justified the kill by saying that the Hercules could carry a missile (I think they meant a man fired portable SAM that could be fired from the ramp/door)...the Americans lost their sense of humour over that one!
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Offline DanG

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2009, 09:01:16 PM »
As to current british military units: The RAF maintains the red arrows too, and there's a motorcycle display team and the guys from the Army navy and marines that do the field gun run at the royal show each year, plus there's the marching mands and the household cavalry. Shall we cover them all in armour plate and send them to the front line too?

I was under the impression that in every single one of those examples, having been drawn from the service...  That this was exactly what we do?

The Household Cavalry doubly so...  Seeing as how on deployment they swap the horses for tanks (thus covered in armour and sent to the front line as per your suggestion)...

And of the day.  If you are in the army I think you are army (navy or air-force) first and fancy recruiting tool second.

INSO.  Is this the case?

Yes its the case, but that's my point.

We DONT send the household cavalry into the front line riding horses with shields. And if the red arrows pilots are called back to their squadrons, then they get green planes with guns in them to use. The gun teams from the royal tournament get proper arillery not horse drawn limbers and muzzle loading cannon.

Just like steel penguin says They get the right equipment for the job.

So in your example of the motor bike units they get dirt bikes for mobility and speed and get used on scout missions.  We don't bolt guns and armour on the bikes and expect them to assault tanks on open gorund.

Although under certain circumstances...  Say for example...  And completely at random...   :paranoid2: :drevil2: A war against a zombie uprising...  The colour of the kit might not be important over what you need it to do... 

Although thats a serious move into unchartered conversational territory (and a bit deliberate on my part!   muahahahaha)


Oh...the RAF has a war role for all of its aircraft...even if it is just for spotting/recon.  Even the Grobs...

I once heard of a Hercules shooting down an F16 during a joint exercise (it was just laser tagging).  The crew rigged up a laser designator and justified the kill by saying that the Hercules could carry a missile (I think they meant a man fired portable SAM that could be fired from the ramp/door)...the Americans lost their sense of humour over that one!

I had heard that such improvisation by British Forces was quite common, and annoyingly effective.  One example an old soldier told me was a pan european exercise simulating post nuke comms blackout.  The Brits were the only force able to think in the field and react and meet the exercise requirements (I wonder if they used motorcycles as 'runners'  :angel:)

OK.  Back on topic...  In fact there was a comment made earlier thats on topic...
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Offline DanG

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2009, 09:02:42 PM »
I have also attempted to remove the comedy aspect of the original Squats, the main reason for them being removed in the first place. This had to start with removing the name Squats, although i make mention to it as a derogatory term commonly used by citizens of the imperium.

Back on topic.

I was mot previously aware of this reasoning...  What do you mean 'comedy aspect'?
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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2009, 09:24:56 PM »
I think that the original Squats were viewed within GW circles as a bit of a comedy army.  They didn't want to go down the 'fantasy Dwarfs in space' route so they decided (for some strange reason) to mix fantasy armour styling and hells angels together and hoped for the best.  They also decided not to use various aspects of the epic forces for the 28mm stuff (so no gyrocopters) and tried to tie them in with the imperial guard.

The mix of order and chaos didn't really gel so they put the Squats to sleep by having Tyranids destroy their home worlds.

For comedy:  Egg shaped Exo armour, Exo armour riding a trike, HUGE 'hog' style bikes with tiny little riders...oh the shame...

The sad part of it is that some of the concepts COULD work but the miniatures and the artwork let it down badly due to the weird design-route they took (some of the miniatures were awesome...but some were dire and confused).  

Hopefully, using Grymn and designing some of the hardware himself, Darknight (##EDIT##Not Darknight, Fog99UK...with all this 'debate' going on I got confused) can remove the comedy aspect (like he has said he is trying to do) by taking the existing rules but changing the style of the miniatures to suit his vision rather than the messed up lack of vision that ruined the Squat race and doomed it to a Tyranid snack item.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 07:17:18 AM by Inso »
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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2009, 09:37:22 PM »
I like the implied fusion of Squat and Tau tech. It fits in with what I want my stunties' equipment to look like.
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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2009, 09:46:00 PM »
Hopefully, using Grymn and designing some of the hardware himself, Darknight can remove the comedy aspect (like he has said he is trying to do)

You have me confused with someone else, Inso. :)

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2009, 10:44:47 PM »
I little mistaken identity there. Thanks to everyone for dropping the bike discussion to get back on topic.

The Grymn are the perfect example of what a sensible, well thought out space dwarf race would be.

There were so many inconsistencies between the background, epic models and 40K models of the original Squats that it drove me mad and has given the GW development department a 20 year mind blank. I mean they go on about how technologically advanced they are but give them padded jackets for armour and the crappy little lasguns used by the imperial guard.

The mixing Tau and Demiurg technology is in the background. They got the Ion weaponry tech from the Demiurg. Remember that I am working the list and background through the Demiurg concept.

I have endeavoured to give a uniformity in the codex. everything in the list is justified in the units' bestiary entries, and those are drawn from original descriptions and from the overall character of the race shown through the history...everything in the Ancient History section is the ORIGINAL background with the name Squat changed to Demiurg.

Reading the bestiary entry for the bike units, for example with the risk of going off topic again, they are self justifying. The riders loved riding them across the surface of the homeworlds that they couldn't bear to go into battle without them, it's like an cigarette addict not taking a pack with them. They'd know they were impractical but wouldn't care, they are the best engineers in the galaxy after all.

They also justify the use of robots. They were adapted or developed for the battlefield to be sent into the most dangerous areas to save risking real Demiurg lives. They do not use the use of robots as an all encompassing strategy as honour and renown are a huge aspects of their culture.

-------

A respectful nod to Kev now... Your range of current and WIP Grymn models originally inspired me to create the codex, they fit perfectly, I've even created the Brigid character simply because I love the female halfling pirate model so much. I really hope you get round to releasing the heavy power armoured models (as per the Oct 2004 image in the eye candy topic), they would be used as the Ironguard whereas the Torsten armour type is the standard exo-armour.

Offline caerban

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Re: Codex: Demiurg Warhost
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2009, 10:50:00 PM »
 :applause: :applause:
Congratulations on dragging your thread kicking and screaming back on topic  :D
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