Author Topic: Heresy Dragon Big Thread Of Doom  (Read 770627 times)


Offline tumblebomb

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1251 on: August 26, 2011, 01:24:46 PM »
I was rather drunk when posting my comment!  so you could tell i was: :swear:
Any wait is hard but I know all that will be forgotten once I get my grubby paws on one!
I knew you'd be trying to do something about it Andy!   
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Offline Vermis

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1252 on: August 26, 2011, 03:14:18 PM »
Seventies-style music...?

Strictly Andy that should be Draco calamitosus ssp. laureola. Sorry... 2 zoology based degrees means I can't even let fantasy binomial nomenclature slide :)

You big nerd.

Beat me to it.  :lol:
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...before it even gets put into production the response that starts with 'nice job' ends in 'now do another...'

Offline agentmolar

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1253 on: August 26, 2011, 03:16:40 PM »
I can testify that its a beautiful model. Im still in the process of putting it together.

I can completely understand how some people can be worried about receiving their dragon, but I have faith in Andy. He is a top bloke and he has stuck through with this thing even when early on he was worried about completing the project.

To give some support on the whole cash flow business angle. Although I sometimes get paid in advance for jobs ( funnily enough, not a position I like to be in, i prefer to be paid a the end) its hard to actually put money aside when other expenses rear their heads. Particularly when times are tough but the expenses keep rolling in. Having said that the only problem worse that having to pay for expenses after being paid for it months before is completing a job and then the client not paying you at all!!!  Keep the faith people, and remember that the more you complain, the quicker I expect to see it assembled and painted once you get it  :silly :whistle:
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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1254 on: August 26, 2011, 04:54:33 PM »
I wasn't "drunk" when I posted both the initial and the follow-up posts so I feel compelled to make this last response.  It is good to see the rhetoric being toned down.  No one, including myself, wants to see Andy go down, especially for such a headache as this one miniature.  Yes, he is a nice guy and I appreciate a favor he did for me last year, whether he remembers it or not.  I am sorry he is in such a financial state, but by his own words, I have come to understand the sequence of events.  As for the rest of the posters on this forum,  I don't know anything about any of you personally and you don't know much about me, so making assumptions is futile and assumptions are generally wrong. 

I DO run a business ( in fact several), 2 of  which have been in operation since 1986.  The others were started in 1992, 1998, 2000, and 2010.  All but one are still active and doing well.  That one was a miniature/game store that was extremely profitable from 1998 to 2002 when I closed it due to a near-death operation.  During that time, I became quite familiar with New Wave and their lack of business ethics.  I like to think that after being burned by New Wave and the subsequent business I did with Wizards of the Coast that I was a large part of the downfall of New Wave.  Vengeance is not usually a part of my makeup, but that was an exception.  Valloa was right: New Wave use to say "Get people to buy stuff and that will pay for your item" and 9 thousand other excuses.  My experience with that company makes me look at every other order I make with a lot of scrutiny.  The bad taste they left still affects the few orders I am willing to put in to the CMoN store as well as purchases from other companies until they are proven to be trustworthy.  Thus, my order was made for a dragon from Heresy.

I am asked by new clients if I work on retainer, but I prefer to be paid when the work is delivered.  I value my clients and old and trusted ones never fail to pay promptly (maybe being lawyers helps that case).  I work with new clients in a limited way so that my costs are not significant if they fail to follow through.  Being prepaid for a project or product makes a demand that I deliver within a certain window of time and that the product be satisfactory to the client.  That is pressure I do not like on me mentally and physically and that is why I do not take a retainer.  Sometimes life gets in the way of finishing a project on time and not being prepaid gives me extra breathing room.  Yes, we can expect that everything will go smoothly, but, as Andy found out,  we cannot guarantee that it will.

Yes, I have always put a portion of sales in an account that pays for operating expenses and planned purchases, but money ordered by a presale in my game store was always set aside until the item was delivered to the client to their satisfaction.  That way, no surprises came back when something was defective or the item was returned.  Maybe that is part of my reaction to this whole mess.  it is unrealistic to expect extra money coming out of the blue to save you.  Maybe sculpting more new minis might generate sales.  Apparently Andy is capable of putting in more hours to this side of work than spending hours lamenting the dragon affair.  There I go, giving him unwanted advice again.

I don't feel recommending the dragon would be to his advantage right now.  If he truly wants to dissuade people from buying the dragon until he can produce it, then remove the "Buy It button" until he can deliver. Otherwise, that page should inform people who still want to prepay for it that the waiting time is undetermined rather than giving them a false assurance that it will be delivered to them in 6 months.   When Andy resolves his issues, then I will be the first to push that dragon and everything else he can produce. 

I have collected dragons for 20 years and this one would be nice to have.  It is now down to a wait and see. 

@ Enazel
This "idiot" is not a "he", but a "She".  I deserve an apology.

Offline tumblebomb

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1255 on: August 26, 2011, 05:59:50 PM »
Rhetoric is what its all bout here ;)  as well as rampant nerdism. Its very nice to hear a more reasoned tone coming across Anatora. Thats the problem with text based mediums you can never tell tone fully. I'm not usually an irritable git or too reactionary but when things come across badly I can usually rise to the occaision. 

Well getting two different tones from someone who is a lawyer (have I read between the lines properly?), hardly seems unusual. I'm no hypocrite, I work in IT and fully aware of my faults. Namely being a bit Obsessive compulsive, thinking I know everything,  among others I'm sure 8:::   

In case anything doesn't come across properly,  I mean this in gentle humor and a wry smile on my face. Don't take me too seriously (unless I'm having a rant of course)

Roll on more dragon news!
When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die.

Offline Avicenna

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Hi Anatora :) I think enazel apologised for his comment on the previous page. I think we should probably leave that part of the conversation there rather get hung up on that. People get rather defensive of heresy in situations like this, but it is only because they care. Hopefully Andy's response will alleviate some of your fears

I am thoroughly looking forward to getting hold of my dragon and, like you, will be crossing my fingers that it arrives intact ;) and I'm only a few hundred miles away!

Hopefully you can forgive people's passionate response to your post - don't take it to heart

Take care

Peter
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anatora

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1257 on: August 26, 2011, 06:34:26 PM »
@ tumblebomb
No, I am not a lawyer, but my clients are, along with law enforcement agencies. Maybe that is why I don't worry about getting paid.   Generally I am a reasonable person, but I do have my moments.

@ Avincenna
I think Enazel apologized  on the previous page to Andy, but you are right that that part of the conversation is not worthy of being pursued.   I don't take "people's passionate response" to my post to heart.  If I  speak my mind, and they take exception, I have no problem with that.  Just don't assume you know the person's background who posts on these forums. 

Subject dropped from this end.

Offline Enazel

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1258 on: August 27, 2011, 11:47:42 PM »
Actually Anatora i said and I quote "I sorry for the comment" not directed at your or Andy, I made a comment that was out of line with the forums, whatever my feelings on the situation are, as for the he / she. I pretty much assume everyone is male, because I can promise you I will get less aggro calling a lass, he than I would called a lad, her.

Twosoc

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1259 on: August 27, 2011, 11:53:38 PM »
what was new Wave?

Offline Klute

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what was new Wave?

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away .............

Offline Enazel

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1261 on: August 28, 2011, 06:52:08 AM »
And we really don't want to go back there.

Offline yxalitis

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1262 on: September 05, 2011, 02:04:42 AM »
Wow, way to silence the whole thread!
I am sure there are lots of other things to talk about, then some ancient company collapse.

Like...WHERE'S MY DRAGON! :tantrum: :tantrum:

LOL, kidding...! :lol:

but seriously, where is it?

(Dodgeball reference, "White Goodman: There's no reason we need to be shackled by the strictures of the employee-employer relationship. Unless you're into that sort of thing. In which case, I got some shackles in the back. I'm just kidding. But seriously, I've got 'em. ")
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:27:06 AM by yxalitis »

Offline yxalitis

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1263 on: September 05, 2011, 02:12:16 AM »
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:17:05 AM by yxalitis »

Offline Big Boris

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Re: Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1264 on: September 05, 2011, 09:09:30 AM »
Waiting on Ian to send me the masters back so I can send them elsewhere to see if they can be produced more easily/quickly. Meanwhile, paying off my bill by making moulds and casting up a few bits for him in return.

Offline Big Boris

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Re: Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1265 on: September 05, 2011, 09:18:39 AM »
Note: not all the masters, just the really horrible bits that are causing all the delays due to miscasts, trickiness, etc.

Offline Enazel

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1266 on: September 05, 2011, 02:23:41 PM »
Good luck Andy :)

Offline Bergil

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1267 on: September 05, 2011, 04:55:25 PM »
Might be able to turn it into one of those garden centre ornaments, the dragon twists around doesn't it? So it could have a solid center of some sort.

Make alot of money doing garden ornaments you can...  :paranoid2:

Offline RiTides Nids

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1268 on: September 15, 2011, 10:33:14 PM »
"Oh, and if you read the site, you'll see that I too am trying to put people off buying Dragons until we're caught up, unless they don't mind waiting months."

At this point, it would seem to make sense to remove the dragon from the ordering page, and not dig the hole any deeper than it already is.

With less than 20 dragons out, "months" is probably not accurate. It is approaching 3 years since some of the first preorders were made... with less than 10% of the current orders filled.

Don't dig the hole any deeper... stop taking dragon orders until you've gotten at least the preordered ones out. I'm not even sure if "months" is accurate for that.

To echo the posters above, if this were able to be produced, I'd recommend it to others in a heartbeat. But clearly it's not. I also think it's a little naive to say that the mold was expected to be easy. A miniature this large with giant wings et al is going to be difficult almost no matter what.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but it's good to be straightforward about these things. At this point, taking more dragon orders could do more harm than good. It's rather perilous to do so...

I am thankful that you allowed me to trade my order to some of your other models in early '10, after waiting over a year (preorder had been placed in January '09). I see now that the preorder page says "not available to trade". I really, really think these should not be available to order until you've gotten them out. 200 pounds is a lot of money to take with no end goal in sight. A disclaimer just doesn't cover it.

I won't beat the drum and keep replying in this fashion, but I check this thread periodically hoping that progress has happened, and with 17 dragons out... it's really time to take that page down. It's the first link that shows up at the top when you go to the main Heresy page, and despite the disclaimers, I think listing it for sale at all is deceptive at this point.

Also, there was a really big ruckus a long time ago in this thread now about the order the dragons would be sent out in. You can see how that matters now, with how slowly they are being sent. I think it was unprofessional to pressure people to finish paying off their preorder to hold their spot in line, and I think it's unprofessional to continue to take more orders for this when the others are so delinquent.

Not trying to be crass, just honest... I would have absolutely no problem with Heresy if the line was "We got overwhelmed, we're trying to catch back up, we'll put it back on sale once we have". But to continue to take money for this model almost 3 years later? I think it is very irresponsible and should stop...

And again I won't keep replying in this fashion, but I figured I'd try one more time. I know a lot of people who post here are big fans of Heresy, but this has to stop... links to that page get posted on forums, people not knowing the history probably have been tempted to preorder it, and will in the future... and that's just not fair to them or a professional way of dealing with customers, despite the time estimate disclaimer on the ordering page.

It should simply be a "status" page, perhaps with an email sign-up for when the product does become available. If that were the case, again, I'd have no problem with Heresy... but as it is, I think this is absurd and has to stop soon. If there are only a few more are out by Christmas, will you see reason then? Or continue to allow people to order this without knowing when you can possibly deliver on the 200 pound commitment...

As long as that is the case, I will continue to have a major problem with Heresy, and the way that this business is continuing to be conducted despite all the problems and delays with this model led up to this point, and which cannot reasonably be assumed to be on the verge of being solved. Hence, the waiting time being "months" is deceptive, and people should not be able to order now, paying 200 pounds, for something that is not likely to be delivered... even in 2012 at this point :-/

Just my $0.02 and hopefully not too offensive, just honest about what has become a taxing situation for all, I'm sure... and even is being an outsider looking in on the process.




Offline beefcake

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1269 on: September 16, 2011, 05:02:33 AM »
 :yawn:

Offline Big Boris

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Re: Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1270 on: September 16, 2011, 08:25:21 AM »
The last three people to buy the dragon (on the new site, and since it's become definite about waiting times etc) have all been emailed by me when they ordered it to double check they knew there was a long wait involved and that they understood this and were OK with it. They were all OK with it.

Offline Lachs

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Re: Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1271 on: September 16, 2011, 12:24:29 PM »
Quote from: Big Boris on twitter
Put an order in for next batch of dragons, now rent has been covered for next quarter. Procreate will have to wait...

Is number 21 inside the next batch of dragons?  :D *fingers crossed*

Offline Big Boris

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Re: Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1272 on: September 16, 2011, 12:30:48 PM »
Yes, it should cover numbers 18 - 30, assuming all goes well

Offline Lachs

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Re: Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1273 on: September 16, 2011, 01:02:41 PM »
Yes, it should cover numbers 18 - 30, assuming all goes well

 :lalala:

Offline fredox

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1274 on: September 19, 2011, 01:14:57 PM »
Somehow I managed to forget about paying the postage until seeing dragons up to No. 30 should be on their way. Still looking forward to it.