Author Topic: Heresy Dragon Big Thread Of Doom  (Read 789416 times)

Offline leadhead

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1225 on: August 18, 2011, 04:08:30 PM »
Same result here.
Cult of Inevitable Decay painted:  93/123 (Heresy), 22/22 (non Heresy)

What was that universal greeting?  "Bah weep, grah nah weep, ninny bong!"  Hot Rod, Transformers: The Movie

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Offline Vermis

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1226 on: August 19, 2011, 04:50:53 PM »
The tyranny of facebook.  Join us or be cast out.
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Offline leadhead

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1227 on: August 19, 2011, 05:14:30 PM »
Join us or be cast out.

I'll be a cast away thanks.  I just hope Gilligan isn't here.  *Looks around for Mary-Ann and Ginger*
Cult of Inevitable Decay painted:  93/123 (Heresy), 22/22 (non Heresy)

What was that universal greeting?  "Bah weep, grah nah weep, ninny bong!"  Hot Rod, Transformers: The Movie

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Offline yxalitis

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1228 on: August 22, 2011, 07:57:53 AM »
Soooo

What number are we up to now?

I am #26, so getting VERY close now... :boing: :boing:

Offline Big Boris

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Still on 17. Ian's been on holiday, and Heresy is flat broke due to having to pay for metal, putty, tools and the spyglass range all at the same time (unfortunate coincidences) so can't pay for more at this moment. Expecting to get some more in in September.

Offline LazarusKing

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1230 on: August 25, 2011, 08:54:25 AM »
I've got a semi-business-y trip coming up, but after that, it's mini time.  My Hurns are getting sick of not having a street gang to kill.  Hopefully my country's economy will stay afloat long enough to make this Christmas as Dragon-y as possible.
Lazbot KILL!!!!

Offline Ajsalium

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Still on 17. Ian's been on holiday, and Heresy is flat broke due to having to pay for metal, putty, tools and the spyglass range all at the same time (unfortunate coincidences) so can't pay for more at this moment. Expecting to get some more in in September.

Perhaps your economy would improve if you claimed the shipping costs of the dragons sent so far. I'm still waiting to pay for mine (and buy a few gangers while at it). :yup:
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Offline Big Boris

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What was stopping you? I already said, you can paypal me the money direct orders@heresyminiatures.com ;)

Or you can use this confusing addition to the shopping cart:
http://www.heresyminiatures.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=273

Offline Enazel

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1233 on: August 25, 2011, 04:14:34 PM »
And it was well worth the full price I paid. either if I am still waiting. This thing seems like it could break Heresy, and I really don't want that to happen.

anatora

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1234 on: August 25, 2011, 06:23:57 PM »
I seem to be somewhat confused about this whole "not paid enough" thing. In fact, I am really disturbed that so much seems to be wrong with this deal.  I read the information on the link Andy gave regarding shipping and how to go about the process.
Quote:  Shipping or Extra Money For Pre-Ordered Dragon  1.00 
 
A lot of people have not paid the full 200 for their Dragon, having pre-ordered it back in 2009 when Andy thought it would only take a month or two to sculpt and had been told it would cost a lot less than it turned out to cost here in 2011. 

When 2 dragons were ordered in November, 2010, I waited until Andy said the dragon was finished and on the way to the caster before I ordered and paid the price he quoted in November 2010.  He should have waited to take pre-orders until he had firmed up his contract with Fenris for casting the  needed number of dragons, including the mold costs.  In that time, he would have found out that Fenris could not cast the dragon without making many changes and Andy seemed to have had to foot that bill for their casting problems.  A contract would have put the costs associated with casting mistakes back on Fenris where they belonged, not on Andy.  Then Andy could have taken pre-orders based on a real cost estimate instead of a guess.

The mould cost alone has meant the first 19 Dragons cast up cost  4975.00 GBP to buy in!  Bearing that in mind, some kind souls have opted to pay the difference between what they were told in 2009 and what the final price has turned out to be. You can use this option right here to pay an amount in GBP towards the shipping or final price of your pre-ordered Dragon.

19 dragons?  What happened to the 2 extra dragons if only 17 have made their way out to paid customers?  At that price per dragon, what did the caster use under the resin....gold?   By the way, I don't think I have a problem with math, but if 221 people pre-paid 100 GBP for their dragons, Andy should have collected 22,100 GBP from those pre-paid orders.  4975 pounds seems a far cry from 22,100 pounds.  Why wasn't part of this money set aside just for the casting costs as any prudent business person would have done?  It was, after all, a contract between a seller and a buyer.  Yes, things can change, as they did with the caster, but the original deal still stands. Having accepted money based on a price the seller set, it is not up to the buyer to bail the seller our of any difficulty he made for himself.  As with any seller who accepts money for an item he prices, he is obligated to deliver that product, free from defects, to the buyer in a certain time frame, or contact the buyers and give them the options of waiting (without increasing their cost) or refunding the money they pre-paid. That's called consumer law here.

Assuming you have not ordered other items alongside it, your Dragon will cost the following amounts to send:

UK - Special Delivery - 10.00
Europe - Airsure (& insured up to 500) - 18.00
USA/Rest of World - Airsure (& insured up to 500) - 23.00
If you do not choose the correct shipping options, your dragon will not be sent. Andy will email you to discuss.[/b] (unquote)

I have saved a copy of this webpage, just in case the shipping, like the cost, goes up after this date (2011/8/25).  46 pounds seems excessive shipping for 2 resin dragons. At that price, I shall indeed examine it in minute detail and if it is broken, I will be contacting Andy for a new one.  However, at the rate the dragons are coming out, (17 per 2 months, it will be 10 months before he will have mine in hand to ship.  Just thinking about that long wait (10 months since I placed the order and 10 months before I might see them makes me say this to Andy... you are free to refund my money for 2 dragons to my paypal account anytime and my 2 vacant spots will make the waiting list a bit smaller.




Offline tumblebomb

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1235 on: August 25, 2011, 09:25:56 PM »
I'm sorry but you seem to be ill-informed.
NO ONE is asking you to pay more than than the original 100 for the dragons.  Some people have paid more out of purely a personal choice.

 As for the shipping cost it was stated from the get go it would be more expensive than usual, considering that is for USA or rest ofworld. It seems very reasonable to me. I had to fedex something to Denmark from UK before and it cost me 35 with preferential rates as I was sending from the company I worked with. 

Whatever the production method/contract as a customer its not really your business. You pay the money, it gets made and sent to you. Andy is just the kind of person who likes to let the community how things work.

While I also don't like the thought or how much extra time it'll take  to get mine, its a custom artizan piece scultped by craftsmen, moulded and cast by craftsmen and will be worth every penny.   Thats not cheap work!   What you  should expect is probably an estimate of when you can expect your to arrive, is probably law here. ( I don't know where you're from)

Free from defects, what else do you expect?? From every evidence here on the forum and web the dragon will arrive every bit as perfect as you expect!     

How about instead of casting aspersions actually just state your mind!   Or actually read the information on the website/ forum which will be perfectly clear.
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Offline gi6ers

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1236 on: August 25, 2011, 09:36:00 PM »
 :thumbup: :D

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1237 on: August 25, 2011, 10:42:35 PM »
I'm sorry but you seem to be ill-informed.
NO ONE is asking you to pay more than than the original 100 for the dragons.  Some people have paid more out of purely a personal choice.

 As for the shipping cost it was stated from the get go it would be more expensive than usual, considering that is for USA or rest ofworld. It seems very reasonable to me. I had to fedex something to Denmark from UK before and it cost me 35 with preferential rates as I was sending from the company I worked with. 

Whatever the production method/contract as a customer its not really your business. You pay the money, it gets made and sent to you. Andy is just the kind of person who likes to let the community how things work.

While I also don't like the thought or how much extra time it'll take  to get mine, its a custom artizan piece scultped by craftsmen, moulded and cast by craftsmen and will be worth every penny.   Thats not cheap work!   What you  should expect is probably an estimate of when you can expect your to arrive, is probably law here. ( I don't know where you're from)

Free from defects, what else do you expect?? From every evidence here on the forum and web the dragon will arrive every bit as perfect as you expect!     

How about instead of casting aspersions actually just state your mind!   Or actually read the information on the website/ forum which will be perfectly clear.

Thank you for your concern, but I have read every post on this website, Twitter and facebook, and I did state my mind.  That was not casting aspersions at all.  I know I am not being asked to pay more..that is beside the point.  Nor do I care that people have paid more just to help him out.  Nor am I concerned about when the product will be cast and shipped.  As far as arriving every bit as perfect as I expect, it is a long way across the sea and if there are hidden defects in the resin due to bubbles or thin area resin, it may arrive in less  than perfect condition regardless how perfect it looks when Andy packs it up.  I don't think I would be willing to wait another 20 months for a replacement.  What I find appalling is that when such a large amount was collected and, relatively speaking, less than a fourth was spent on the 19 dragons.  He should have enough left to cast at least 80+ more dragons at that high rate for the 19 dragons he quoted and he says in his own words he doesn't have the money.   17 out of 221..not good at all.

Offline yxalitis

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1238 on: August 26, 2011, 02:37:22 AM »
I know I am not being asked to pay more..that is beside the point.  Nor do I care that people have paid more just to help him out.  Nor am I concerned about when the product will be cast and shipped.
So what IS your issue?
As far as arriving every bit as perfect as I expect, it is a long way across the sea and if there are hidden defects in the resin due to bubbles or thin area resin, it may arrive in less  than perfect condition regardless how perfect it looks when Andy packs it up.  I don't think I would be willing to wait another 20 months for a replacement.
Yes, working as intended, IF you get a faulty part, it will be replaced...what's your point?
What I find appalling is that when such a large amount was collected and, relatively speaking, less than a fourth was spent on the 19 dragons.  He should have enough left to cast at least 80+ more dragons at that high rate for the 19 dragons he quoted and he says in his own words he doesn't have the money.   17 out of 221..not good at all.
Ever run a business...I thought not, look, no manufacturing business in the world collects money from one product, and only spends that money on the production of that product, it simply doesn't work that way.
Now reduce the size of the company to one man's garage, and these factors are magnified 200x. Andy, like all small businesses, cannot just leave large sums of cash set aside for a product's development that may be 6, 12, or 24 months down the track, the money is needed to produce a product designed 6, 12, or 24 months in the past, in a cycle of current payments used for prior products.
Andy struck trouble when the dragon took so long, the pool of money ran out, it's that simple, and whilst it's possible Andy could have handled things better, no-one here is anything but supportive and patient with regards to the delivery of our dragon.
In short, pull your head in!

Offline leadhead

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1239 on: August 26, 2011, 03:50:09 AM »
 :metoo:  Very well spoken yxalitis
Cult of Inevitable Decay painted:  93/123 (Heresy), 22/22 (non Heresy)

What was that universal greeting?  "Bah weep, grah nah weep, ninny bong!"  Hot Rod, Transformers: The Movie

I have a tweeter thing now.  I might even use it.  @leadpaintshed if I can figure out how to

Offline beefcake

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1240 on: August 26, 2011, 05:50:11 AM »
I also think the difference between the 19 and 17 is that Andy sold off 2 miscast dragons to people who were willing to pay for a miscast product.

Valloa

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1241 on: August 26, 2011, 07:29:44 AM »
Ever run a business...I thought not, look, no manufacturing business in the world collects money from one product, and only spends that money on the production of that product, it simply doesn't work that way.
Now reduce the size of the company to one man's garage, and these factors are magnified 200x. Andy, like all small businesses, cannot just leave large sums of cash set aside for a product's development that may be 6, 12, or 24 months down the track, the money is needed to produce a product designed 6, 12, or 24 months in the past, in a cycle of current payments used for prior products.
Andy struck trouble when the dragon took so long, the pool of money ran out, it's that simple, and whilst it's possible Andy could have handled things better, no-one here is anything but supportive and patient with regards to the delivery of our dragon.
In short, pull your head in!

 

Do YOU or HAVE YOU ever run a business??  Just asking as assuming someone hasn't doesn't mean you are right. And before you assume I haven't, yes, I have.   :smile:


Ok I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here as I am frustrated with this too.

I paid for my dragon, number 70, when the dragon was being molded.   So casting production copies at that point is not a 6, 12, or 24 months down the road expense, that does tend to be an immediate expense.  One that, at this point, is currently only limited by being able to pay for the castings.  Which I do believe is the entire issue here.  Being 70 that leaves 151 dragons paid for after mine which equals at 100 pounds a dragon  15,100 pounds in hand after the dragon was in the molding process. (Note I am not including anyone before me since I know a few paid in full years ago)  At that point you know your estimates for master molds, masters, production molds and production copies and can budget accordingly. If the preorders were unpaid until the dragon could ship, I could completely understand the problem with finances and would be nothing but supportive.  But, having already gotten payment in full from preorders there should have been more than enough to pay for the molds, etc.  and production copies AND still be able to put the rest of the money back into other aspects of the business.  Large businesses have the luxury of spending money that comes in immediately and drawing from elsewhere down the road.  Most small businesses do not have either large or reliably steady income amounts and YES lots of small businesses actually take funds from things like preorder payments and put them towards those products only until the preorder commitment is done. Out of the 22,100 pounds total for the preorder and PREPAID dragons most small companies do indeed have funds that are put aside and not touched to insure they could produce the product. 

I think the entire issue here can be broken down to a few easy points:

Dragons are prepaid, reasonable expectations can be made that any company, especially very small businesses with tight budget, who takes prepayments puts aside money to ensure casting can take place.
22,100 pounds for all the dragons  at least 15,100 pounds in dragon sales (according to the numbers Andy has listed) but only 4,975.00 in costs so far for molds and 19 dragons.   If you take the number of dragons paid for when it was in the molding/casting process only, that is still 10,125.00 pounds that was available to be immediately put aside for the casting of the rest.  None apparently was, even with production immanent.   :blink:

Statements of having made a large personal purchase, two loans, facebook/twitter mentions about not having paid electric bills for 2 years, house up for sale, buying a new addition line before prior commitments WITH such debt, the "use it or lose it thread" and stating that because you are broke you can't cast more dragons...this does not build trust that any company is going to be around long, let alone long enough to actually fulfill that many preorders (especially in the 6 months listed) with only 17 out the door on top of all that.  Am I confident I will see my dragon?  Nope.  Not based on everything said about finances. Do I think Andy will try? Yes, but that is a lot of debt to dig out from and still try to keep a business going, let alone fill that many prepaid and apparently prespent orders.

I can understand production problems that involve sick casters, waiting in the queue for your order to be cast, etc.  That kind of waiting is not a problem to me.   But waiting because of fiscal mismanagement during the casting process and wondering if he can dig out of the debt enough to cast prepaid items.. yeah to me that is very different.   17 dragons every two months (being generous enough in the estimate that enough money could be found to cast that many)  that is over a year just to cast up dragons that people already paid for. Assuming money can be squeezed out.  I can not imagine taking money for something and not putting aside to insure all those preorders could be out my door as fast as my caster could do them and I quality checked them.  I would certainly not touch those funds for anything else business wise until I knew for sure the true costs of the dragons, because until they are done and delivered that money isn't really yours.  Again, I would be plenty patient and supportive if this was true casting problems, but it's not.   

This dragon looks like it would be a beauty in hand and I was sad to have to strongly recommend to several other dragon fans to stay away until the day it's actually in stock to avoid any chance of a New Wave type ride. 

Offline Big Boris

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The only bit I have objection with in your statement, Valloa, is the New Wave jibe. That really pissed me off. I cannot begin to tell you the contempt I hold for the New Wave thing. The rest of your worries, and those of Anatora and presumably a few of the other people who weren't one of the lucky 17 so far, is fair enough, based on how you perceive it.

Where did the money go? Well, where money always goes, as said by the other people, you have to keep the business going and that pot of money suddenly has to be spent because the tax man bills you, or the metal and putty run out. I had saved up several thousand pounds, put to one side, which based on the price I was told the Dragons would originally cost me to buy in, should have paid for the first 100, at one point 150.

Unfortunately, that price was then obliterated when it became clear that Ian had totally underestimated the complexity and time-consumption of the mould. What had appeared to be a reasonably straightforward project proved unworkable. I had to alter the sculpt, the whole set of moulds had to be remade, and the costs per Dragon shot through the roof. Ian has to be paid for his time, and the rubber moulds are where the money is going, rather than the resin cost, which is still substantial per Dragon.

19 Dragons have been billed for by Ian, unfortunately some of the parts were miscast (it took a week or more to check and send out all the dragons individually) - certainly to a degree that a customer would feel obliged to angrily return, which is why 18 and 19 weren't sent out. Quality is the key here. I'll be asking Ian to do some replacement castings to make them full kits. I'm also going to be investigating a potentially speedier process to get some of the parts produced overseas and thus save Ian some of the intolerable workload he's under.

In this industry, unless you have the financial backing that GW, Mantic etc have, then you are governed by cash flow. End of. You can plan and plan and scrimp and save but at the end of each week, things MUST be paid for. And that means you have to use the Do Not Use money if all the other money has run out. You can't plan for everything. The killer for me has been the increase in metal price - tripling in the space of 12 months has done serious damage to my profit margins on all the other stuff that was being used to pay for the Dragons. If I could have prdicted that, i would have spent all the reserved Dragon money on Tin and been rolling around in the cash as I type.

Here's the most important thing: I thought I knew the true cost of the Dragons. Then it turned out I was misinformed, that things had all gotten more expensive over the time it took to finish and that through no-one's fault, the true cost turned out to be a lot higher than the initial numbers. I thought it was all done and dusted back in November last year when the sculpting was 'done' but it took months to get the first casts back and this fact revealed that the whole thing had to be re-cut and re-sculpted and a new set of moulds made, sacrificing money meant for the short term ie Dragon castings, for money saved by making the production process easier in the long term, i.e. the new moulds.

I don't give a crap if anyone believes me or not or thinks it's just sales speak or whatever the hell you want to think. I will send each and every one of these blighted dragons out even if the worst financial outcome imaginable happened and I got made bankrupt. I will find a way to do it. I made a personal promise and I don't break promises. If I was New Wave, I would have turned around and said, 'Oh, well, all those 100 dragon deposits were paid to me as a sole trader, and Heresy Miniatures Ltd is a legally separate entity and doesn't hold any obligations to fulfil those contracts' or some such crap. That's not who I am and not what Heresy is. Those dragons will be sent out. It's just going to take a little longer (as things stand, that is. Of course if the process I'm investigating works out, then it may suddenly all go much more quickly)

As to shipping costs, you've ordered two dragons. They'll weigh 2.5 kgs or thereabouts, depending on how heavy the box is that we'll have to use to send them together. When the time comes, I will find the cheapest secure way of sending them and let you know the cost by email. The price quoted on the site that has dismayed you, is the actual price of sending a single dragon by actual UK mail.  I've rounded it off to the nearest . If I can find a cheaper method, that's the one I'll offer to you. If you don't want your dragons at that time, you can say so then, and we'll sort out something.

And as to financial woes - if I sell the house, all is sorted regardless of processes etc, I'm back to square one from a personal standpoint but can build from there. Damned thing has to sell eventually. But hey, I should have predicted the housing market slump, right?

Offline Big Boris

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Oh, and if you read the site, you'll see that I too am trying to put people off buying Dragons until we're caught up, unless they don't mind waiting months. But I'd appreciate it if rather than cast me as some money-swindling conman you asked people to maybe buy some of the other stuff in the range in the meantime; it all goes towards getting your Dragons into your hands.

Offline Enazel

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1244 on: August 26, 2011, 09:24:54 AM »
anatora, ok fine I give you the money for your dragon and I take them thanks very much. I will to wait, This a big project and its been something which I think if Andy had seen all the issues from the start he would never have started.

Andy if this idiot is still having ago Refund him and tell him to stick is money, I sure someone else will be quite happy to pay for the dragon.

Offline Big Boris

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Easy there, tiger! Anatora is just understandably concerned because from her POV, this looks similar to what has happened with other companies, ie New Wave. She's worried she will not get his stuff anbd thus has vented her fears on the forum which is what the forum is here for. It's not just for people to say if they like something, it's also for people to air their concerns in a place where others (who might feel the same way but don't like to let me know) can see those concerns and read my response to them.

My response is essentially, "I keep my word, and those Dragons WILL go out. Just eventually, is all." That might suck the hairy dangly objects grammatically, but the message is no less pertinent.

Offline Enazel

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1246 on: August 26, 2011, 11:14:54 AM »
I know Andy, and I sorry for the comment, going to leave it up because it confuse on the respond them. Yes we been waiting for the dragon, a good while, but once the shipping start, Ian had a holiday etc, so delays will happen, its small companies there isn't extra staff to take up slack when main guys go on holiday.

Offline caerban

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1247 on: August 26, 2011, 11:38:21 AM »
The dragon has been both a disaster and a triumph all at the same time. Having mine in my sweaty paws I can tell you that it is undoubtedly the pride of my collection and a beautiful piece of work. Definitely a triumph.
But everything else has been a nightmare. The stresses and strains of the sculpting and production on Andy. The internal changes in the market and in the industry over the time taken to complete. The annoying realities of running a small business. The recent tax hikes and cessation of some UK tax breaks. The sheer complexity of the dragon itself and the problems of casting weighing on Ian. And the sheer amount of time it's taking to catch up on orders. Definitely disasters.
And the problem is that until they have the triumph in their front room people are only going to have the disasters to look at. People are going to be concerned and they have a right to be. So let's not go overboard on the concerned or get impatient with the less patient. Or for that matter get too concerned. Andy has been up front with all the issues via a large number of media, the dragon has never been a project shrouded in mystery, just one heaped with aggravating delays. He will get there, keep the faith. I sure as hell think it was worth it.


But then I've got mine. Nyah! *blows a big raspberry and runs away*
;)
"No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head."

Offline Big Boris

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"Draco Calamitosus Laureola" to give it it's Binomial nomenclature (it's latin name for those of us who don't know what that is, i googled 'latin name')

Offline caerban

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Re: The 1st ever Heresy dragon. A big one. [UPDATED Halloween 2010] DONE!!!!
« Reply #1249 on: August 26, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »
Strictly Andy that should be Draco calamitosus ssp. laureola. Sorry... 2 zoology based degrees means I can't even let fantasy binomial nomenclature slide :)
"No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head."