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www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk (Go To: Hasslefree Homepage) => Hasslefree Gaming and Fluffery => : Brandlin October 25, 2014, 01:21:34 PM

: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 25, 2014, 01:21:34 PM
Remember this?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3gqtEexFvac/SluY06zH0XI/AAAAAAAABH4/sHRv4RzAv2o/s1600/dropshipwip42.jpg)

Well, I've dusted off the idea and am now doing this.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oRM8r1rvS5E/VErkcdLatBI/AAAAAAAAEvs/NYlQik1Z_eM/s1600/SkeletonHullWithDoor2.JPG)

My son is learning CAD as part of his engineering schoolwork, so I got a copy of Solid Works and am using this model as a test for teaching myself! So far so good.

I always wanted to have a hollow version of my dropship so that I could deploy troops and vehicles from inside. This model is the same size as the physical one, and accomodates my old crow scout cars.

The design i've chosen is a bit of a pain as the height of the rear door becomes the limiting factor in getting vehicles in. SO to do anything bigger will require a MUCH bigger hull. I'm hoping to be able to scale the model up. The good news is that the design is very unlikely to accomodate walkers as they're too tall!!

The hope is that I'll be able to laser cut this out of ply/MDF to make the wooden skeleton/carcass you see here and then clad it in Lasercut styrene panels as the original is.



: Re: Blast from the past
: Inso October 25, 2014, 04:00:57 PM
Looks interesting :)

I have deliberately NOT got hold of a 3D software tool because I know that my life would just disappear :(

As for walkers... they may have a 'down form' like in the VOTOMs series:

(http://media.aintitcool.com/media/legacy/images2007/anime/MAP345461A-5hr.jpg)

Or they may fold up and have air-portable pallets.

Just saying ;)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 25, 2014, 05:34:02 PM
Looks interesting :)

I have deliberately NOT got hold of a 3D software tool because I know that my life would just disappear :(

As for walkers... they may have a 'down form' like in the VOTOMs series:

(http://media.aintitcool.com/media/legacy/images2007/anime/MAP345461A-5hr.jpg)

Or they may fold up and have air-portable pallets.

Just saying ;)

No.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 25, 2014, 07:21:26 PM
Now with added opening door and extending ramp action!

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nUrnGoufSB4/VEvphxlWpcI/AAAAAAAAEwM/QMg-j7jT-CA/s1600/RearDoorFrameAssemblyclosed.JPG)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k8qGBgCthAg/VEvoZAhpNDI/AAAAAAAAEwE/sy6Tl5vPuDE/s1600/RearDoorFrameAssembly.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake October 25, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
Nice. So are you going to go and get it printed?

That was the old listerine bottle drop ship right?
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 26, 2014, 09:53:45 AM
I'm likely to get it laser cut - though i am undecided whether to do it just for me or to see if i can sell a few. It's unlikely to be cost effective to sell.

: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 26, 2014, 03:50:51 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bKYe6s7oHIE/VE0WmpBzTcI/AAAAAAAAEwc/iFv_BTtff0M/s1600/HullAssemblySkinned.JPG)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-becoks16DxY/VE0Wm5Y3y1I/AAAAAAAAEwg/9Tq5-S-bKRY/s1600/HullAssemblySkinnedSectioned.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 28, 2014, 08:40:44 PM
And now with Landing Gear ... more details on the blog.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k_26cjuDa64/VE_8axOZ0gI/AAAAAAAAEw4/GnkKm_XrmVE/s1600/RenderLandingGearDown.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QopQkE6SIzI/VE_8a8URvRI/AAAAAAAAEw0/bU67YG9EUbA/s1600/RenderLandingGearUP.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Mr Teufel October 28, 2014, 09:31:58 PM
Wow, you're going all-out on this one!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 29, 2014, 11:29:56 AM
Never do things by half!


A little posing of it all coming together...

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BNVHKDwpdag/VFDMnreVpaI/AAAAAAAAExQ/s8sm4kjZMu0/s1600/Posing1.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin October 29, 2014, 06:58:55 PM
that is looking veryyyy good there Brandlin
the thing with a price is,  how much? 
what you may think is too much has to compare to the rest of the dropship market, and there arnt that many others out there.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 29, 2014, 07:08:54 PM
that is looking veryyyy good there Brandlin
the thing with a price is,  how much? 
what you may think is too much has to compare to the rest of the dropship market, and there arnt that many others out there.


True and to be honest I have no real idea at the moment. I suspect there is about 30 worth of lasercutting time based on the amount and complexity of parts compared to previous models, and thats not including material costs or any cast components.

For example I've just priced getting the landing gear feet 3d printed at shapeways and they come in at around 3 a piece. So 3d print the master and cast up the production runs.

Add to that I haven't modelled the cockpit or engines yet.

I expect this will top 400 component parts.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 29, 2014, 10:32:32 PM
WIP Detail of the Engine Mounts, allowing the Engine nacels to be attached by magnets and rotated to one of 12 positions for posing in flight or on the ground.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y1iYaEaXp8Y/VFFpBKeiwHI/AAAAAAAAExc/V1xLJpXwGrw/s1600/EngineMountDetail.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Mr Teufel October 29, 2014, 11:17:32 PM
Nice!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 30, 2014, 11:31:49 AM
Today's thought challenges:


Lots to mull over in my head and your views and comments welcome...
: Re: Blast from the past
: Mr Teufel October 30, 2014, 01:47:01 PM
Have the ramp slide out horizontally from under the flooring, then hinge down?
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 30, 2014, 06:02:32 PM
Have the ramp slide out horizontally from under the flooring, then hinge down?

Great minds think alike! I was considering this just over a short distance to bridge the gap caused by the hinge, but your idea takes it a step further. Have a simple door with a ramp that pulls out from a 'slot' under the hull floor.

I like that.

Lots of structural redesign......
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake October 30, 2014, 07:01:27 PM
I think keep it simple. I would use it as a starting point for skirmish games and having lots of opening stuff ie. missile bays, makes it seem more a toy than a gaming model. If you were going to make it able to have a flying stand then missile bays on the bottom would make it even more difficult to mount. If you were set on them how about ones that appear from the top of the craft? I seem to recall a model of the alien's dropship doing that? Is that right? Or were they fixed that way?
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 31, 2014, 11:51:28 AM
Just a few images to show the arrangement of the Engines. Note these are WIP at the moment. They will need to be detailed so they can be 3d printed and then resin cast.

I decided to go for similar shaped engines fore and aft for simplicity. I'm still debating whether to push the forward engines further outboard to prevent them from ejecting into the rear ones. I'll fiddle with it to see what looks and feels right.

The engines are shown here in the standard forward thrust position, but the mechanism to allow them to be placed in any of 12 locations.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fd88mH7yL6Q/VFNz62NomOI/AAAAAAAAExw/r9-fDfMF4uI/s1600/Posing2WithWIPEngines.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FeDrLh8mgpA/VFNz6nDI8DI/AAAAAAAAExs/IdOqr7RC2o0/s1600/Posing3WithWIPEngines.JPG)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-820nA8J7Spc/VFNz6z6X2LI/AAAAAAAAEx0/8qIy8bdvkxA/s1600/Posing4WithWIPEngines.JPG)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4-polz3lBu8/VFNz7mwzbGI/AAAAAAAAEx8/hz-bpQl3m6g/s1600/Posing5WithWIPEngines.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin October 31, 2014, 06:24:29 PM
instead of inboard / outboard,  would high / low work ?   just a thought.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 31, 2014, 07:18:03 PM
instead of inboard / outboard,  would high / low work ?   just a thought.

Yes and no. The engines swivel to offer VTOL capability through vectored thrust. So mounting them High/Low Fore /Aft would eliminate the problem only when the engines were in forward thrust mode.

I think I'm just going to leave the rear engines flush to the hull, and move the front ones outboard. At least thats a lot better than the very wide configuration I had on the prototype.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin October 31, 2014, 07:29:40 PM
fair nough  ( where's the ponder icon?)
not having been close to the original I wasn't certain how well it would work,  but if we don't suggest the best idea will escape  :smile:
still looking good though  :thumbup:
: Re: Blast from the past
: leadhead October 31, 2014, 07:44:25 PM
 :thinks:

Found it!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin October 31, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
:thinks:

Found it!

please dont stop contributing Steel Penguin - all thoughts appreciated. I've thought a lot of this through but there will still be great ideas out there and if people have them i'd rather know!

I did get a suggestion elsewhere that said, instead of side mounted engines, just put huge rotors at each corner, remover the cocpit and have the hull land verticle do that we could fit 40k dreadnaughts in it. So i replied... "so basically you want a completely different vehicle?"

I was wrong - there ARE some stupid ideas! :-)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin November 01, 2014, 12:45:43 PM
wile ive sensible suggestions to make, I will carry on adding,  I may not be  jabbering away constantly, but I do try to pay attention ( worried yet  :smile: )
keep at it though its looking good.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 02, 2014, 02:34:17 PM
Okay, so all basic components sized and fleshed out. Surface details are still broadly to complete but you can get a sense of the overall scales etc.

Lots more pictures on my blog.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NnAF23-gGTE/VFY8Z7pElsI/AAAAAAAAEzI/dSsWfdvAaoQ/s1600/WIPComplete07.JPG)

Front View: shortened landing gear to make the hull feel squatter and reduce ramp angle.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wXRXOHd_na4/VFY-Tf0oSAI/AAAAAAAAEzw/7NwU2harPmM/s1600/WIPComplete12.JPG)

Side view showing Ramp angle.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Kla5CTMk3zg/VFY8btejj2I/AAAAAAAAEzc/yUEAGT3lNbM/s1600/WIPComplete11.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 02, 2014, 02:53:58 PM
I still dislike the cockpit. It's made only with straight lines, whereas the hull and engines have some nice tight curves. There's a aesthetic disparity there thay spoils it for me.

It's as if you had stuck the front of this horrible Renault Megane:
(http://mural.uv.es/cap/imagenes/megane.jpg)
On this beautiful Mazda MX-5:
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2010-05-24-2010mazdamx5miata.jpg)

Also, I'd make the cockpit detachable (magnets for the win).
: Re: Blast from the past
: Inso November 02, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
Looking at the side view with the ramp angle, it isn't much different in slope angle to that of a Merlin helicopter... so I think you could get away with it (personally).

I tend to agree with Ajsalium about the curviness of the body compared with the boxiness of the cockpit. Now that you have gone digital, there is a perfect opportunity to add a few curves to the cockpit to help tie it better to the body.

One thing I disagree with is making the cockpit detachable. I can't see the logic behind it unless you go the whole hog and make it just like Space 1999 and have a frame that drops the body off... and that is not what this dropship is all about (and would mean a complete re-design). However, seeing as the cockpit would be attached to the body during assembly, there is no reason whoever bought the kit couldn't add magnets and make it detachable if they wanted to... I guess the body would make a good prokie for a habitation unit.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 02, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
My idea regarding a detachable cockpit is that the body is actually a futuristic iso container. So it can be used as a transport for goods, people (troops), or even as a small habitat (advanced command center).
: Re: Blast from the past
: Inso November 02, 2014, 03:29:34 PM
But that would mean the cockpit would need to be a spacehip in its own right... and clearly, it doesn't have the size or 'stuff' to be that.

That said, the cockpit is likely to be a resin piece so could be left off if you wanted... or depending on what Brandlin wants to do, the body could possible be sold separately on it's own.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Tasker November 02, 2014, 10:22:50 PM
This reminds me so much of the Eagles from Space 1999.  I love it.  :-D
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 05, 2014, 04:14:36 PM
OK, sorry for the delay

Thank you for all the comments.

Trying to address each of them.

Boxy vs Curvy.

Remember that my original intention here was to make a drop ship for my old crow vehicles. Their style is angular and has the raised panel details that you see on the cockpit. The Listerine bottle was merely a 'shape' that appealed to me. Oddly in CAD the boxy vs curvy nature of the parts stands out way more than it does on the real prototype. I think a chunk of that is because the prototype has panels and other surface features on the hull that sharpen the outline more. I do agree that as presented it doesn't look cohesive.

On the prototype the cockpit is scratch built from styrene sheet - and that drove a lot of the straight lines and boxy-ness. I REALLY like the cockpit, but that's probably because i was so happy with how the prototype came out. But I'm also pretty well wedded to the Listerine hull shape.

The 'Space 1999' feel was somewhat deliberate, as i discussed on my original blog build five years ago - homage rather than copy.

I have two options really.

1. Make the cockpit curvier.
2. Make the hull more angular.

For a hollow hull I'm committed to either making a laser cut model to be assembled or scratchbuilding the hull to be resin cast. I think the resin casting of the hull is probably a bit beyond my scratchbuilding skills and knowledge right now. The cockpit is almost certainly going to have to be cast - probably from a 3d print. If the cockpit is going to be 3d printed then curves aren't a problem. So, I think I shall go that route.

NOTE: I just scared myself by loading the cockpit model up to shapeways to get a quote - $65 in their low detail white flexible plastic. but $402 for the detial white plastic! Even hollowing this out only brings the price down to $270! It's only 70 x 50 x 80 mm!! Sheesh. Even the Landing Feet are $8 a piece! SO master print and then cast is the only way forwards.
 

Detachable Cockpit

The cockpit is and always was detachable with magnets. However this was only ever done because the way the prototype was made with the cockpit and hull cast as separate pieces it was the easy design decision. I am not going to redesign to cockpit to be a 'ship' in its own right, but there will be detail on it that you could pretend are thrusters so that you can claim its an escape pod or suchlike. Personally if i was procuring military equipment and the the design gave the opportunity for the fly boys to 'jetison' the troop carrying module to save their own skins, i'm not sure thats a feature i would buy!


Hull or Container?

I have always toyed with the idea of replacing the hull with a 'frame' and having a removable 'pod' (magnets again of course). The 'Frame' would follow the line of the bulges so the engines are mounted in the same location as current and can be vectored. A 'spine' would run across the top of the current Hull Linking the forward and rear engine 'bulges' in a kind of capital 'I' shape. This remains a possibility for a variant in future. It wasn't done with the prototype because the poured resin Hull didn't make it feasible. I like the squat practical shape of the current ship, but dislike the fragile nature of such a variant when the detachable 'pod' is removed.  I would also have to solve the problem that the landing gear only fits in the hull not on the frame, so the vehicle cannot currently land unles sis has the pod. Finallt if the bulges are part of the frame rather than a hull then the pod shape is a pretty boring thunderbird 2 type oval with flattened sides :-(


Scale

What I am going to do is play with the scale of the overall components. regardless of boxy/curves i find the cockpit and engines to be a little on the small side, So they will get beefed up. Don't forget, as per the prototype, this has a pair of rear rudders to be cast and added - I've not CAD modeled it yet.

I may also rescale the rear hull so that it accomodates something bigger than the old crow and Goanna scout vehicles.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020181753/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/gecko/geckopl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020183332/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/goanna/goannal.gif)

I want to be able to get Gladius Medium Tanks and Glaive Medium APCs in it. As well as the modular vehicles that never went on full release that I have a number of... (http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/old-crow-modular-vehicles.html)
(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020170417/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/gladius/gladtl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020181156/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/glaive/glavtl.gif)

I think the Claymore Heavy APC will be a step too far, and the heavy Lancer and Sabre are bigger again
(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020164836/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/claymore/clayl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020182127/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/lancer/lancertl.gif)(http://web.archive.org/web/20081020183742/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm/sabre/sabreaal.gif)


Changes

I like the squatter/shorter landing gear so that's staying.
The ramp will slide under the floor of the main hull. (which means redrawing a very large part of the hull structure).
The rear door will still be hinged and i think i'm going to keep it folding down. The hinge wont be in the way of the ramp and the door and ramp will locate with magnets. This means the ramp doesn't need to have an 'axle' in the main hull to pivot. I have toyed with the rear door hinging at the top to keep it clear from the ramp and it might look cool, but it means having to include some for of 'prop' to hold it up and I don't want the fiddle.

Anyway that's all for now.

More waffling and WIP designs for comment as they come.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 05, 2014, 10:26:54 PM
By popular demand... Some outline shapes for a curvier cockpit. We call this the Beyonce prototype.

More pictures on my blog.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3JkUebACAs4/VFqemc3q3LI/AAAAAAAAE0g/Z56_AjGNJuk/s1600/CockpitComparison06.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dQ4GPWty0hQ/VFqekVCAUUI/AAAAAAAAE0M/n4Ml_cu_oBY/s1600/CockpitComparison03.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RIE5RHrj-6Y/VFqekCgZGwI/AAAAAAAAE0A/lvU46X4FdoM/s1600/CockpitComparison02.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GorpPpTn4uc/VFqgA-FKytI/AAAAAAAAE00/i91UhvSJF4I/s1600/WithCurvyCockPit01.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qWFaXmlIp80/VFqgBIsoHqI/AAAAAAAAE1A/Iz9k-guN-o0/s1600/WithCurvyCockPit03.JPG)

Of course, now all those lovely flat panels that I was putting embossed details on to are either single or couble curvature so surface details will take a bit longer to add.

Comments welcome - particularly, is this an improvement? Not only is it curvier, but its also longer but not wider or deeper yet. But I have modelled it Parametrically so the whole design is only constrained by less than a dozen measurements so its very easy to rescale and fiddle with.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 05, 2014, 10:42:30 PM
I think it now looks significantly better, and the two pieces are better tied together.

If anything, I would make it wider but not longer, to help keep the full shape of the dropship more compact (or squat).
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 06, 2014, 06:15:51 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gRWIaXKDT0Q/VFu42VCJ8dI/AAAAAAAAE1Y/z9pDWQD7jag/s1600/CurvyCockpit01.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ipViLikYL48/VFu411M6PjI/AAAAAAAAE1U/OVVTSVs1lT0/s1600/CurvyCockpit02.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 06, 2014, 08:08:59 PM
:thumbup:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 07, 2014, 01:48:06 AM
Now with curvier engines and details...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9_0KY2-yzH4/VFweolnUa4I/AAAAAAAAE1w/pCTRisP6_RA/s1600/CurvyEngineAssemblySIDE.JPG)

... and assembled to the still blank hull.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_G_iuX25JFw/VFwiK2fZuBI/AAAAAAAAE2I/39_3LedkcqA/s1600/HullAssemblyNew01.JPG)

A few more pics on my blog as always...
: Re: Blast from the past
: Mr Teufel November 07, 2014, 10:44:40 AM
Now that's lookin' right purdy... :thumbup:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 07, 2014, 11:48:39 AM
Now that's lookin' right purdy... :thumbup:

Why thank you sir!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 07, 2014, 03:18:02 PM
The Beyonce is shaping up nicely. :yup:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 07, 2014, 03:24:04 PM
Phhhhwoooooar look at the tail on Beyonce!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f3xfOkeDxGE/VFzeQ4LV9HI/AAAAAAAAE2w/JLVpCSbiDIk/s1600/TailFin01.JPG)

... and assembled.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l901ccyhu2s/VFzhMgoesxI/AAAAAAAAE3I/XgU4O_MKoe0/s1600/WithTailFin02.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sOPS6yBYVNk/VFzhMTuwyuI/AAAAAAAAE3E/4mqo8hO_Vps/s1600/WithTailFin01.JPG)

I'm just waiting for Inso to come along and tell me how unaerodynamic the tails are (I know - but I like them!) and to suggest that the engines look too exposed and too much like jet turbines to be futuristic :-)

I do still want to model turbine blades on the air intakes and deepen the jet nozzle on the back.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 07, 2014, 09:35:04 PM
Just to show the engines do rotate to provide vectored thrust...

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ndmQbi90hp8/VF03U6H7A0I/AAAAAAAAE3k/GplMPaLG96E/s1600/TurnedEngines01.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xFCbKZvMmN0/VF03VVDOobI/AAAAAAAAE3o/uWHpDCZ6V5A/s1600/TurnedEngines02.JPG)

... and if you see it from this angle, then you know you're about to be flattened...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v8Z7--oUdVo/VF03VqwCGRI/AAAAAAAAE3s/C8D43aCYU2w/s1600/TurnedEngines03.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 08, 2014, 02:56:00 AM
A final picture for today

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nxqov9zwi4s/VF2EB1EeUdI/AAAAAAAAE4E/v2Mv2-af3sQ/s1600/Nicepic.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 10, 2014, 05:49:59 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SKFoZ6OpY5Y/VGD4X5S1OqI/AAAAAAAAE4c/qQZqUzdrXNg/s1600/shoulders02.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VbznMLacZJw/VGD4XCZWlzI/AAAAAAAAE4U/R3f3x2YeCAk/s1600/Shoulders03.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o5O-pONd7iE/VGD4XeCw27I/AAAAAAAAE4Y/-lOfa1NpLGQ/s1600/Shoulders01.JPG)

Shoulders on the front engine mounts prevent them from exhausting directly into the rear engine intakes.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 10, 2014, 08:07:52 PM
Not bad. Not bad at all. You've nailed it.
Now onto the detailing, and the engineering of making it all work as a model. :whip:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin November 10, 2014, 08:36:39 PM
 :thumbup:  nice looking,  I would say that if you want to make more than the one "glamour" one it may be best to avoid going too fancy on the detail, though it looks like the engine pod is mirrored on the horizontal so it can be flipped for each side.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 11, 2014, 02:15:20 PM
Not bad. Not bad at all. You've nailed it.
Now onto the detailing, and the engineering of making it all work as a model. :whip:

Thank you Ajsalium. Still some way to go.

:thumbup:  nice looking,  I would say that if you want to make more than the one "glamour" one it may be best to avoid going too fancy on the detail, though it looks like the engine pod is mirrored on the horizontal so it can be flipped for each side.

Thank you Steel Penguin. Well, I'm definitely going to make more than one as I want 3-4 of them. Whether I then Sell on a few, we shall have to see.

The engines are deliberately symmetrical about the central horizontal plane as they end up mounted upside down on the other side of the ship. Detail level will be similar to the Old Crow Model vehicles with slightly raised panels and a few simple hatches, vents etc. The details on the hull will either be laser cut / etched into the sheets, or where it needs to be a little deeper, resin casts from one piece open molds.

Anyway there is a slightly bigger problem right now...

The dimensions of this dropship were set by the size of the original Listerine bottle used to form the prototype resin cast. I continued using those dimensions when I started to draw up this CAD version for laser cutting. Partly because I am teaching myself the CAD system.

In the meantime I have changed my mind regarding the likely payload for the dropship and want to be able to include almost all my Old Crow 25mm vehicles.

So you see that somewhat large block of 'pine' in the following picture? Well, that's a block with the maximum dimensions of the vehicles I now want to be able to transport. Its the Payload Block.

I think you might see the problem.

Oops.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fG2hhMD3_zU/VGIO6u4LjCI/AAAAAAAAE40/iUFzv74sqtM/s400/Payload01.JPG)

It's a little on the large side when you slide the block into the payload location...

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--a-beq8o1WQ/VGIO8HbWKEI/AAAAAAAAE48/2U3kDmCWZII/s400/Payload02.JPG)

Compare the maximum dimensions to the relatively small rear door...

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sXHHEui3fMM/VGIQTbdJg9I/AAAAAAAAE5E/8GJo9ZKgJL8/s400/Payload03.JPG)

So I have some work to do.

Bear in mind I still need to be able to get a full length ramp in under the existing floor, which in itself will mean that I have a few mm less headroom than shown here.

I sketched up a simple block shape to stretch the hull around the Payload Block and I dislike it. It makes the whole ship look far to 'dumpy', the main hull becomes almost cylindrical.

So, I am doing to play around with a few options.
I MAY press ahead with this current version and get it made, as this could handle some of the vehicles such as the Goanna and Gecko scout cars and trucks (unlaiden). This could be a command/light version of the drop ship. A further 'Heavy' variant  could then have an enlarged hull with the same cockpit, landing gear, engines and tailfins making the whole thing modular.

Decisions, decisions.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 11, 2014, 03:05:15 PM
And a slightly more accurate block model of the Gladius Tank.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WVqd4vUZUJc/VGIjW8xG7II/AAAAAAAAE5Y/ISrvPs8HjYI/s1600/Payload05.JPG)
:-(
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin November 11, 2014, 03:13:44 PM
ohh poot!
you could increase the bay size,  or go for a drop out floor ( similar to the tray for the nuke waste from space 1999) , or  build this as a small vehicle / infantry boat.  the length , width are good? its just the height isn't it?   hmmm
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 11, 2014, 06:31:15 PM
ohh poot!
you could increase the bay size,  or go for a drop out floor ( similar to the tray for the nuke waste from space 1999) , or  build this as a small vehicle / infantry boat.  the length , width are good? its just the height isn't it?   hmmm

I'm ruling out the drop out floor as a primary means of loading and unloading. Whilst you can deploy the payload simply by jettisoning it, hovering with VTOL is not only a MASSIVE use of fuel but also difficult due to engine created turbulance. That doesn't mean that a belly door is ruled out as a secondary method (however i want an accessible interior by removingthe roof, and if i remove the belly too, then there's very little holding it all together!)

I am committed to a means of loading and unloading whilst the vehicle is landed. After all, this is a wargaming model if it doesn't land then its hardly going to be on the tabletop.

Yes length is fine. Width is on the limit and height is the major problem. So fundamentally i need more height. HOW I get more height is the tricky bit. I could just scale up the whole thing, i could just thicken the hull. i could remove the rear chamfer too... i need to play with options. I don't really want to lose the overall homage to the original shape which is what started me down this route in the first place.
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake November 11, 2014, 06:57:27 PM
I think the solution is just going to be a timely one of having to lengthen all the wall heights. I don't know the program and whether it will allow you to section off an area and remove it.
What about a back door that opens like a deloreon, hinged on top? There would still be the option of having a fold down ramp in that case as well.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 11, 2014, 07:34:04 PM
I think the solution is just going to be a timely one of having to lengthen all the wall heights. I don't know the program and whether it will allow you to section off an area and remove it.
What about a back door that opens like a deloreon, hinged on top? There would still be the option of having a fold down ramp in that case as well.

ooooo now a gull wing door on the back, where the hinge line sits on the roof... that might be interesting.... hmmmmm

brain goes into full steam mode.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Mr Teufel November 11, 2014, 10:28:37 PM
Have rear legs that extend, as well as a belly ramp that lowers hinged from the front?
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 15, 2014, 11:51:07 AM
Breaking up the cockpit into pieces that will fit on the 3D Printer table.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LT30Ld4Sc0k/VGc7D7LYQiI/AAAAAAAAE5s/3yU2U1YG-TE/s1600/Assembly01.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bzBTzzpxGME/VGc7Eh7EcuI/AAAAAAAAE50/Y5XXn9EyjMo/s1600/Exploded02.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZRWFObVbfj0/VGc7ElUIsBI/AAAAAAAAE54/PLlFZTwFL3E/s1600/Exploded01.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 17, 2014, 03:34:30 PM
It may look like all I've done is some colouring in. But the Cockpit and Engines are now hollowed, split into castable components and are shown here with some colours just to highlight the details a little better.

If you look at the join lines for the cockpit you'll see locating lugs allowing magnets to be used to 'snap' the components together when assembling. I think this will still be manufactured as a solid resin piece for simplicity but the hollow 2mm shell means the print cost is dramatically reduced. I've also added an Iris valve to back of the cockpit for those that want to be able to model this with a detached cockpit at some point.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8sGUfC6oMOo/VGoRtPjae-I/AAAAAAAAE6M/N_NvmV8BPAo/s1600/CockpitWithMaterials01.JPG) (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7B4An-gGTvk/VGoRtekqpsI/AAAAAAAAE6U/r5aIm1gvjxw/s1600/CockpitWithMaterials03.JPG)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SatXehy96Kw/VGoRuCt8FQI/AAAAAAAAE6c/RlzCd_irr_M/s1600/EngineAssemblyWithMaterials01.JPG) (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--isF7Ivhjc0/VGoRvHgKOBI/AAAAAAAAE6w/LxE0klzysGA/s1600/EngineAssemblyWithMaterials03.JPG)

More and bigger pictures as always on my blog - link in signature.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Mr Teufel November 17, 2014, 10:01:20 PM
Looks like a little space runabout in its own right.  :cool:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium November 17, 2014, 10:32:06 PM
Apart from the very obvious Eagle influence, the pod also reminds me of the Narcissus (Nostromo's escape pod):

(http://content8.flixster.com/question/57/78/61/5778614_std.jpg)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 21, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Thank you Mr Teufel - that was the idea. Hopefully I might be able to sell a few on their own...

Thank you Ajsalium - I don't see the likeness myself.


The redesign of the main Hull is now underway

Now it is topless!

The roof is removable to allow you to get figures and vehicles inside.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Q46tIsMvgY/VG9KPd_kiiI/AAAAAAAAE7k/1Py3bqNflG0/s1600/RemovableRoof.JPG)

Also the Main structure of the ship is simplified with flight stand connections and landing gear incorporated. There are also holes pre-cut for wiring, and I will incorporate a lighting rig and battery compartment in the design.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F5UmJqBqZzQ/VG9LGwvUfMI/AAAAAAAAE7s/ZdRKBSIL-e0/s1600/RedesignedBelly.JPG)

The redesign has also meant that the main bay of the ship is a much simpler boxy structure, 70mm Wide, 180mm long and 45mm high

Height remains the issue and I've yet to design the rear door where the reduced bulge and the door frame itself will intrude.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 25, 2014, 03:47:50 PM
One of the things I always planned is to be able to game 6mm scale sweeping battles AND 28mm Skirmish actions as part of the same campaign. This means having the same figures in both scales.

Therefore I need a 6mm DropShip and a 28mm Scale one.

So with a bit of judicious scaling, and simplifying of a number of features that would be lost at 6mm scale, this is where I have got to so far. I have the tails to add, and a little more simple detail on the hull (a couple of vents, access hatches that kind of thing).

Overall dimensions 52 x 34 x 17

I think this will have to be cast in two pieces. The hull and engines should be cast in a single piece (though I shall have to smooth the join between engine and hull a little). The cockpit split line is not coincident with the main hull split line so I suspect it will have to be cast separately.

The tails are not shown here - but I am hoping they would be strong enough to be cast with the hull... they'd be very fiddly if cast separately.

Anyway, pictures...

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--v_rr8f7Roc/VHSjYBMBw-I/AAAAAAAAE8M/wlY8kJ3T-XA/s1600/01Port.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E40r1xrMDbg/VHSjYlqpisI/AAAAAAAAE8U/kqOxCUV2iOk/s1600/03Top.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-il7HXc46yFc/VHSjUjjNFCI/AAAAAAAAE78/MR1oc7KSlW8/s1600/02Front.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fGs9fVEY7GI/VHSjZlsfZ2I/AAAAAAAAE8g/0QZwZlGgXqI/s1600/06Iso.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful November 26, 2014, 12:29:40 PM
I've only come across this today and I'd say you have a marvellous looking model there.

I prefer the new cockpit with its more curvy design.

You've mentioned 6mm and 28mm have you thought about 15mm?

On another point have you thought about this ships fighter equivalent; a sort of hawk to this designs eagle? You were talking about releasing the cockpit separately so I thought how about a sleek, armed fighter body to stick the cockpit on to. Here's a picture of a hawk just in case no one knows what I'm talking about


http://community.coreldraw.com/resized-image/__size/1040x703/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/13-511-00-00-00-06-98-53/1999Hawk.jpg
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 26, 2014, 12:46:34 PM
I've only come across this today and I'd say you have a marvellous looking model there.

I prefer the new cockpit with its more curvy design.

You've mentioned 6mm and 28mm have you thought about 15mm?

On another point have you thought about this ships fighter equivalent; a sort of hawk to this designs eagle? You were talking about releasing the cockpit separately so I thought how about a sleek, armed fighter body to stick the cockpit on to. Here's a picture of a hawk just in case no one knows what I'm talking about


http://community.coreldraw.com/resized-image/__size/1040x703/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/13-511-00-00-00-06-98-53/1999Hawk.jpg

Thank you for the feedback Hopeful. The Resilient has been a long time in the gestation and there's still a fair way to go.

Yes, i have 'thought' about 15mm. Very briefly. I dont game in 15mm, but when i look at the cost of 28mm i often wish i'd chosen 15.

The purpose of this model is to have a hollow 28mm for posing on a flight stand for display or on the tabletop. Hence my choice to build it with lasercut components. It's a tech i know, unlike resin casting. I also wanted to see how far I could push lasercutting. At 28mm the ship is just about viable, at 15mmm lasercutting would be ruled out completely.

It is true that once a digital shell/outline model is complete then rescaling it is relatively straightforwards, so 6, 15, 28, 54mm etc scales are pretty easy in resin casting. Rescaling the lasercut skeleton on the other hand is a major problem, and if it gets much smaller than 28, then it just isn't going to be viable.

If I do a 15mm scale version, then it will be a full resin cast.

And i still have a lot to learn about designing for resin casting just to get the 28mm made. That's one of the reasons for looking at casting the 6mm first.

As i said on the Lead Adventure forum (LAF) all this talk of scales is making me thinking of nesting Russian dolls - dropships deploying dropships!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful November 26, 2014, 12:57:04 PM
For your gladius tank conundrum you could try a 'Rear bulge' (stop sniggering at the back) between the tail fins so the turret will fit in, but this will compromise the original shape.

One other solution could be a narrative approach i.e. say that the gladius tank's turret can actually sink down into the hull and it pops up when it's deployed. Of course this won't actually fit the tank in. :nah: If you want a full scale Gerry Anderson solution then the ship has a rear gull door which hooks onto the turret and detaches it when the tank loads. The tank then drives in and when it unloads as it drives out the door lowers and reattaches the turret :nah:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 27, 2014, 02:59:41 PM
For your gladius tank conundrum you could try a 'Rear bulge' (stop sniggering at the back) between the tail fins so the turret will fit in, but this will compromise the original shape.

One other solution could be a narrative approach i.e. say that the gladius tank's turret can actually sink down into the hull and it pops up when it's deployed. Of course this won't actually fit the tank in. :nah: If you want a full scale Gerry Anderson solution then the ship has a rear gull door which hooks onto the turret and detaches it when the tank loads. The tank then drives in and when it unloads as it drives out the door lowers and reattaches the turret :nah:

Thanks for the suggestions Hopeful. Unfortunately none of them quite work for me. I did play around with the idea of having the whole rear end lift up like a gull-wing to make the rear door as big as possible - but to my eye it just looked silly. It also had to lift up and therefore needed supporting whilst posed.

I shall simply have a light version (this one) and a heavy one. RESILIENT CLASS and .... Oh My God Class.

6mm finished.

Files are off to a couple of printers for quotes and advice etc before i commit to the 28mm

Coloured it in fully just for fun...

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rKTGMPZnoKQ/VHc5XfvkmTI/AAAAAAAAE9E/4VX-B5yvb18/s1600/Colour01.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful November 28, 2014, 02:38:49 AM
I honestly didn't think any of them would work... but I thought I'd try anyway.

Nice picture; what's the dome like structure between the rear dorsal fins? A defence turret (for the inevitable fighter interception)? Or a 'It looked good so I stuck it on' device?

I also realised what it reminded me of; the 'Visitors' shuttle from 'V'

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/104/a/1/v_transport_shuttles_ortho_by_unusualsuspex-d7dszck.jpg

When I looked it didn't seem like the resemblance was that strong. Maybe I should have spent more time looking at the shuttle and less time staring at Diana :nah:

: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 28, 2014, 03:10:43 AM
Hi Hopeful...

Diana? you too huh??

I appreciate all ideas - it helps me think things through.

On the 28mm ship I have a radar dish arrangement that mounts between the fins. That has undercuts that would be problematic to mold in situe on the hull, and at this scale doing it separately is ... silly. So it has become a radar dome / comms unit / breast thingy.

Meanwhile... on the 28mm ship, I have started to flesh out the internal decor. The main bulkhead shown here separates the hold from the cockpit via an iris valve.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yjK9T0aCbAw/VHflNsDJR-I/AAAAAAAAE9U/HBueLQSPLYg/s1600/BulkHead01.JPG)

You can see a number of storage compartments, medical station and ... "gubbins". This will be resin cast and inserted into the frame.

You can also see the slightly recessed floor allowing for the longer ramp and maximising the rear door height. The opening for the rear door is now complete.

Down each side of the hull is also a "ledge". I am considering continuing the idea of internal 'panels' down each side. Just 3 mm deep these would give the sense of the internals of the ship. Seats for troops, weapon racks... that kind of thing. What do you think? I could make a small number of these which could then be mixed and matched as you wish and simply glued to the inside walls.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--z3q-OI2o_M/VHflOSE8iXI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/fXp20TdnSWQ/s1600/BulkHead02.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 28, 2014, 03:16:15 PM
Next panel in the interior coming together - Monitoring station.

Will be mirrored onto the other side (rather than the expense of additional molds. I still need to detail the 'recess between the screens.

Fold up Seats and overhead cabin baggage will run down the two sides, and then I'll come up with something else at the door end.

I will add  weapon racks, general storage, ring fixing points for securing the payload. Any other ideas or suggestions?

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_VTkG_KT76c/VHiOyiahG_I/AAAAAAAAE9s/PlHtJrWqZ4w/s1600/MonitoringStation.JPG)

I will have to swap to another 3D package to do the 'softer' stuff like straps and such like so they may not get done. Also I quite like the 'clean' look of the interior.
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake November 29, 2014, 04:40:49 AM
Spinning runner things on the ground for easy movement of cargo?
Parachutes (although they would probably be on the minis)
Vending machine.
Static line deployment for paratroopers (maybe too low tech though)
Cargo
Lighting systems?

All looking really good. Love the opening and the monitor system.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 29, 2014, 09:41:20 AM
Spinning runner things on the ground for easy movement of cargo?
Parachutes (although they would probably be on the minis)
Vending machine.
Static line deployment for paratroopers (maybe too low tech though)
Cargo
Lighting systems?

All looking really good. Love the opening and the monitor system.

Thanks for the feedback beefcake

Spinning runner things... Hmm. The recess you see in the floor here is so that the full length ramp can be slotted in. I wasn't thinking of much more than diamond plate for that. Will need to think how I can detail it better.

Parachutes - maybe a little low tech, but troop packs etc would be present, problem is I don't want to commit to anything that ties the ship to a particular figure line. Also the 'soft stuff' is harder (for me) to model.

Vending machine - ? Errr? This isn't an American ship!

Static line - possibly. Certainly part of the grubbing. I WILL add landing jump lights at the door. Good idea.

Cargo - no. There are hundreds of places you can buy cargo so I'll let people choose their own.

Lighting system / I have toyed with this idea, and the main skeleton does have holes to route cables to provide internal lighting to the bay and potentially external lights but only on the hull. Your static line idea about made me think of red/green indicators inside. I'm also now wondering about PL (photo luminescent) paper. I'm not sure how much people would want a lighting kit on a war games model?
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake November 29, 2014, 10:07:22 AM
Just chucked the vending machine in there, make sure you were reading  :wink:
Was mostly just thinking about ideas, nothing that would necessarily be needs on a ship like this.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful November 29, 2014, 05:20:34 PM
A few ideas for interior and exterior fittings. Fell free to completely ignore all of them.

A set of fire extinguishers (low tech but they tend to turn up in films a lot as it's a chance for someone to heroically put a fire out).

The survival panel, a set of emergency respirators

A big button or lever that does something dramatic, like blowing the rear door off if it won't open!

Some stowed cables or a net that's used to secure the loose cargo.

Floor clamps so the passengers don't get hurt by the tank rattling about a bit if the pilot decides to show off.

A floor section with iris valves for dispensing drop troops.

Bomb racks to drop 'presents' for any defenders.

Flare/ chaff/ smoke dispensers for the outside hull.

A 'Mind the step' sign for the rear door. :erm:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin November 30, 2014, 12:25:44 AM
fire extinguishers - great idea.

The survival panel, a set of emergency respirators - possibly... have to figure out how to do that - a bit 'soft'.

A big button or lever that does something dramatic, like blowing the rear door off if it won't open! - YES, with a "Do Not PRESS" sign above it.

Some stowed cables or a net that's used to secure the loose cargo - possibly - again too organic/soft for the way I'm working at the moment.

Floor clamps so the passengers don't get hurt by the tank rattling about a bit if the pilot decides to show off. - Already in train, but these will be tie down points on the walls not in the floor as the floor needs to be clear.

A floor section with iris valves for dispensing drop troops. - I would if I was going to have the same exit on the exterior of the hull. Which I'm not.

Bomb racks to drop 'presents' for any defenders. - maybe.

Flare/ chaff/ smoke dispensers for the outside hull. - Already in hand.

A 'Mind the step' sign for the rear door - i think a "Mind you head" sign may be more appropriate given that a) I've had so much trouble with the rear door height, and b) this will be manned by my Grymn.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful November 30, 2014, 01:59:12 AM
A floor section with iris valves for dispensing drop troops. - I would if I was going to have the same exit on the exterior of the hull. Which I'm not.
For the outside I was going with idea of streamlined panels that retracted when the internal iris valve opened; did you ever watch Airwolf? I thought of it operating a bit like how it deployed its missiles (panel rises up then moves aside).


For the sign above the rear door how about "If you can read this you're about to get concussion!"
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 01, 2014, 01:35:50 AM
Progress on the hull redesign. I have solved the steep ramp angle problem.

In fact I may have over solved it!

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-29RexMPafTk/VHvCcU9eSqI/AAAAAAAAE-A/_tMpb5-ifRw/s1600/RampAngle02.JPG)

The picture shows the 'false' floor that sits in the cargo bay recess and slides out. The rear door will hinge down as before and magnets in the inside of the door will hold the door up against the underside of the false floor, thus creating a ramp.

When readying for take off, the false floor will slide back into the cargo hold and the same magnets will locate it to the recessed main floor. the door magnets will hold the door shut against the rear hull.

Simples.

The only problem is now that the ramp looks too long! Thats about a 7 degree angle to the horizontal.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IJmfvSvPtWs/VHvCb8OsrrI/AAAAAAAAE98/JvrENiynUp0/s1600/RampAngle01.JPG)

I can play with the length of the false floor to get a better look though. Just the hinge and door to redesign now.
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake December 01, 2014, 09:47:24 AM
I reckon about 2/3 that sizes would look really good.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 01, 2014, 12:15:12 PM
Just a thought but couldn't you have several sizes of ramp? Just put the one that you'll need inside it. This could also be explained by stating that the actual ramp is hinged.

I also know you've ruled it out but I think a door that opens upwards would look better with an extending ramp (but it won't stay in place and maybe some other problems would be caused by doing it)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Gangrel December 01, 2014, 12:29:13 PM

A 'Mind the step' sign for the rear door - i think a "Mind you head" sign may be more appropriate given that a) I've had so much trouble with the rear door height, and b) this will be manned by my Grymn.

So no clearance for human troops then? Are you thinking of marketing the finished item or will it be a one-off for you?
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 01, 2014, 02:02:53 PM
I reckon about 2/3 that sizes would look really good.

.. said no woman to me ever...

Just a thought but couldn't you have several sizes of ramp? Just put the one that you'll need inside it. This could also be explained by stating that the actual ramp is hinged.

I also know you've ruled it out but I think a door that opens upwards would look better with an extending ramp (but it won't stay in place and maybe some other problems would be caused by doing it)

Thanks for your input guys.

Hopeful - one ramp at a time please!

There is a much longer explanation of my thinking over on the Lead Adventure Forum (LAF) if you want to check it out here (http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=72288.msg894100#msg894100)

I suspect Beefcake will be just about spot on with his estimate of 2/3 by the time I have played around with the geometry. I think I'm going to keep the separate ramp piece that comes out of the ship completely, But it will slide UNDER a false floor in the hull. This will allow me to get some detail engaved in the floor.

I have a number of issues with a top hinged door hopeful. Some of them model related - some of them real world engineering - some of them just cos its my opinion!

In no particular order...

The top of the door is not horizontal. So to hinge it and have it clear the apex of the door, I would end up with a hinge pin that sits above the apex of the curved hull shape and would spoil the 'line'

A top hinged door would interfere with the rear of the tail fins.

It would need some method to prop it up, which isn't unsolvable, but is more fiddly parts.

In reality you never make opening up doors unless you have no choice. Gravity is not your friend! You want any system to fail to a safe mode. If something fails on this door then it will fail to the "slammed closed on someone's head" mode. (trust me on this one, i worked on the Airbus Beluga!)

In practical model terms, the door lowering down is structurally part of the ramp design. It holds the ramp in the right place and prevents it slipping as well as offering some strength. In addition it also helps to 'thicken' the ramp - making it look more substantial.

Wind likes stuff that sticks up... and it buckles and bends hinges and such like.

Why make a door that hinges up and a ramp that hinges down when you can combine the two into a simpler structure with fewer parts to fail.

and finally - cos i said so!

:-)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 01, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

I have a number of issues with a top hinged door hopeful. Some of them model related - some of them real world engineering - some of them just cos its my opinion!

In no particular order...

The top of the door is not horizontal. So to hinge it and have it clear the apex of the door, I would end up with a hinge pin that sits above the apex of the curved hull shape and would spoil the 'line'

A top hinged door would interfere with the rear of the tail fins.

It would need some method to prop it up, which isn't unsolvable, but is more fiddly parts.

In reality you never make opening up doors unless you have no choice. Gravity is not your friend! You want any system to fail to a safe mode. If something fails on this door then it will fail to the "slammed closed on someone's head" mode. (trust me on this one, i worked on the Airbus Beluga!)

In practical model terms, the door lowering down is structurally part of the ramp design. It holds the ramp in the right place and prevents it slipping as well as offering some strength. In addition it also helps to 'thicken' the ramp - making it look more substantial.

Wind likes stuff that sticks up... and it buckles and bends hinges and such like.

Why make a door that hinges up and a ramp that hinges down when you can combine the two into a simpler structure with fewer parts to fail.

and finally - cos i said so!

:-)

I bet you say that to all the girls :smile: And admit it you are thinking about it really :whaaa:
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake December 02, 2014, 07:02:07 AM
I reckon about 2/3 that sizes would look really good.

.. said no woman to me ever...


Yes... Well... Size of the load and all that. :erm:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 04, 2014, 04:15:16 PM
Minor progress. Bulkheads ready for printing.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pUjA0ihLYSU/VICHyYfRM1I/AAAAAAAAE-Q/l9e6EHn6tps/s1600/BulkHead03.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 05, 2014, 03:50:31 PM
First pass at the layout for seating down each side of the hull.

8 seats in 4 blocks of 2. This makes the 3d printing cheaper and simply means 4 resin casts rather than 1.

Seats are shown folded up, but I may do a variant with a seat down so you can mix and match. Shown here is under-seat cabin/storage, fixing ring for cargo/vehicle load, seat hinge with the seat pad folded up and above that a head rest (very sketchy) and then at the top an over head locker.

I have been considering webbing belts in a 5 point harness but am beginning to think that a hard harness (like that on a theme park ride) might be a better idea.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pWLNJHjfIrw/VIHTAViI9YI/AAAAAAAAE-g/N6WgFWCePio/s1600/SeatSideAssembly01.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin December 05, 2014, 04:46:44 PM
looking good as ever,  though I hate to be the voice of restraint,  but wile the add-ons look superb, each extra part adds to your cost, and to the cost of the finished bird,  not so big a problem for your own " glamour" build, but higher prices may not get more sales.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 05, 2014, 06:14:53 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EPctjG_yNNA/VIHyqtWZLXI/AAAAAAAAE-w/1MYdD0sYaHU/s1600/SeatSideAssembly02.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 05, 2014, 06:18:37 PM
looking good as ever,  though I hate to be the voice of restraint,  but wile the add-ons look superb, each extra part adds to your cost, and to the cost of the finished bird,  not so big a problem for your own " glamour" build, but higher prices may not get more sales.

Very true mr Penguin sir.

My intention is to offer the bits separately.


That way people can choose...

: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin December 05, 2014, 06:36:38 PM
fair enough guv, its a fair cop it is...
its always nice when I point out the obvious, and folks are a step or 2 ahead of me.
ill carry on watching, waiting, and wondering if I can save up   :thumbup:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 05, 2014, 07:02:14 PM
fair enough guv, its a fair cop it is...
its always nice when I point out the obvious, and folks are a step or 2 ahead of me.
ill carry on watching, waiting, and wondering if I can save up   :thumbup:

I wasn't ahead of you, but your question did make me write down what had been running round the back of my head. So its always helpful!


: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 05, 2014, 09:30:48 PM
Finished for printing

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eT-SgUVWQHk/VIIjajt4f_I/AAAAAAAAE_A/958caBZJShY/s1600/SeatSideAssembly03.JPG)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-92PA4fq2id0/VIImvUYSHgI/AAAAAAAAE_M/qNGtX0pWrTo/s1600/SeatSideAssembly04.JPG)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aKnvAXSXFEI/VIImwYlkmWI/AAAAAAAAE_U/IFDeuGizVNc/s1600/SeatSideAssembly05.JPG)

: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 07, 2014, 01:39:46 AM
It's nice to see the project coming along so well; those seats look particularly good with the overhead and lower stowage (Ladies and gentlemen welcome aboard Armageddon Airlines lander flight 27; please ensure your grenades are locked in the locker below your feet and that your tray is in the fully upright position and that your safety catch is on).

Very true mr Penguin sir.

My intention is to offer the bits separately.

  • Basic kit (laser cut hull, engines, cockpit tails and landing gear)
  • Cockpit and engines separately - because i have had enquirers
  • An interior resin panels kit

That way people can choose...

Nice to hear that; the cockpit is good for the 'A signal was heard from an escape pod' scenario.

There's also one other way to release it; a couple of parts every week with a magazine. It is close to that time of year when Agostini and Del Prado give us all the opportunity to build a scale model of the Mary Rose in forty  weekly parts! :nah:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 07, 2014, 02:08:24 AM
Hopeful : lol

Does anyone EVER finish those weekly magazine projects?


I was aiming for a little of the look of a personal seat for each squad member - everyone  (even squaddies) accrue a shedful of personal stuff they bring with them, and I wanted somewhere for them to put it. I'm pleased that just a couple of simple shapes conjours up images of lockers and such - pretty simple really. I was worried that the harnesses looked a little too much like they had just fallen off a rollercoaster?

I have been asked to make a version with the harness up and the seat lowered and the lockers open so that people could mix and match.

think of that as a stretch goal....



(Note that's not a promise ... I'm not sure there actually is the space to put the seat down but still have a vehicle in the hold.)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 07, 2014, 10:19:24 AM
Hopeful : lol

Does anyone EVER finish those weekly magazine projects?

So the forty weekly parts idea is on hold then?

(I'm sure someone has finished one at some point...but it wasn't me)

I was worried that the harnesses looked a little too much like they had just fallen off a rollercoaster?
I'd try to think of more as if it had just fallen off the lander from starship troopers. I do think that a five point harness would look better (author's experience of 3D design:0.00%. Bear this in mind when suggestions are made).
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 08, 2014, 01:41:48 AM
I didn't do much today, but got the final internal panel started.

Not sure whether to make the space two or three "compartments" wide. This shows just two.

I've been thinking of putting roller shutter doors on the compartments, but then thought i could leave them open or part open and model stuff in them. They aren't very deep, so I'd have to 'hint at' whats inside. I was going to do weapons and ammo, but i thought that might narrow down users/buyers as it wouldn't match their figures...

Any suggestions of what to put in them?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6uPaDZINuSA/VIT_MBJK8qI/AAAAAAAAE_k/XJ1NyDFH4OQ/s1600/RearBulkhead01.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 08, 2014, 11:57:04 AM
A little more progress

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dV168vJa08E/VIWQHJUuejI/AAAAAAAAE_0/EREJvBHQZIQ/s1600/RearBulkhead02.JPG)
 
All of these internal panles are just 3mm deep so the detail on them is 3D but it is shallow and I'm trying to get a trompe l'oeil effect.

The storage lockers at the back show ammo crates, first aid and general boxes along with additional oxygen cylinders and the start of what will be rifles. I may add some pistols and a couple of magazines.

However this is starting to look very expensive as these panels need a high definition 3D printerto create the masters ... Gulp!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 08, 2014, 03:28:17 PM
Does that look like weapons in a roll-front cabinet?

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QgVcvT0ktlk/VIXBdTtG_XI/AAAAAAAAFAE/yedh4WjluYY/s1600/RearBulkhead03.JPG)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin December 08, 2014, 04:14:48 PM
yup it does,  how much of a difference between plain door, roll door and that is the cost? ( not a question to answer publicly BTW) but to consider with what you want, a plain roll door, down, wont loose any visual appeal.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 08, 2014, 11:05:37 PM
Mr N.O. Experience with 3D says... closed roll down doors are fine; you can write, paint, transfer on something that says rifles/ med-kit/ drinks cabinet. The rifles do look nice but personally I think plain is better. Also once all of the troops are out you've got the unrealistic scene of a full cabinet of guns when the troops are supposed to be outside using them :whaaa:

As a compromise you could do a plain, open locker so people can stick a set of rifles, or whatever they want, on the inside. I do know of a company that produces loose rifles in the same scale as this lander funnily enough :smile:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 09, 2014, 12:55:53 AM
Thanks hopeful and steel penguin.

Food for thought.

I was quite pleased with them. But seems I'm the only one.
The problem leaving them open for people to fill themselves is that they are only 2mm deep. They are a troupe loiel effect to give the impression of depth.
Modelling them closed would certainly be easier but I thought it looked really plain ...
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake December 09, 2014, 09:17:57 AM
I reckon just the cabinet roller door would be best. Some people may want to use it as a civilian carrier (probably not with the seating style) or even different tech levels.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 09, 2014, 11:45:43 AM
I was quite pleased with them. But seems I'm the only one.
I think the one with rifles in looks superb, and so does the plain one; as Mr. Bond once said "Like peking duck is different from Russian caviar. But I love them both". I just think that plain would be better for a wargames model. If this was for some one doing a diorama they'd probably want the one with rifles showing (the 'Russian caviar' variant).
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin December 09, 2014, 06:53:45 PM
 :metoo:  what hopeful  said.
They don't look bad Brandlin.  in fact they look very good, and you should be pleased with them.
im hoping to help, not discourage, honest
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium December 16, 2014, 12:39:33 PM
I have one question. Those cabinets... are not substracting from the 62mm width of cargo, are they?
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 16, 2014, 02:56:01 PM
Internal width is 77mm.
The Optional cabinetry sits inside that and are 3mm maximum depth each side.
So available internal width for cargo/vehicles is 71mm

Note : the 3mm depth is measured at the base. The harnesses are another 1mm and the overhead cabinets a further 2mm. However these are unlikely to interfere on a vehicles.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Ajsalium December 16, 2014, 02:57:24 PM
Cool. There would be space enough for the APC I'm "building".
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 16, 2014, 04:02:25 PM
6mm first physical prototype.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DC_vFuzW4-A/VJBo7F2gfvI/AAAAAAAAFAU/cXnGAQyw0lw/s1600/DSC_0350.JPG)

more details and much bigger photo on my blog.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 16, 2014, 05:31:18 PM
Cool. There would be space enough for the APC I'm "building".

Surely you mean APCs? plural. One is no good.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Steel Penguin December 16, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
looks absolutely spiffing Brandlin.
well done  :applause:  if all youd done was this, id be impressed, the fact its just a small step on the path is awesome
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 16, 2014, 09:48:20 PM
looks absolutely spiffing Brandlin.
well done  :applause:  if all youd done was this, id be impressed, the fact its just a small step on the path is awesome

thank you...

baby steps
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 17, 2014, 03:18:41 AM
Like Steel Penguin I am also impressed. It's nice to see all the work come together into something that can actually be picked up and handled (and in my case badly painted).


The mystery of the dome at the rear has now been solved; it is obviously a cloaking device as this model is in clear(ish) material :smile:
: Re: Blast from the past
: Brandlin December 22, 2014, 10:26:46 PM
I have finally spent the time finishing the hull, redesigning the front bulge to make the 'push out' for the front engines integral to the hull, and skinningt he whole thing.

I hate it.

The front bulge now looks too angular.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--Fo2eJZNPX8/VJiYs3GR3zI/AAAAAAAAFAk/pgyNttl6Fx0/s1600/NewFrontExtension01.JPG)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AJfH3gnIOVY/VJiYtsLpKTI/AAAAAAAAFAo/KJsTxfLBf5Y/s1600/NewFrontExtension02.JPG)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s9H_TR-gOJs/VJiYt8CdP9I/AAAAAAAAFAw/u4FVhGff5dE/s1600/NewFrontExtension03.JPG)

I think I'm going to scrap the last 3 hours work and go back to having the front and rear bulges match, and then making a separate piece to push the front engines out - probably just a stubby cylindrical shape.

:-(
: Re: Blast from the past
: beefcake December 23, 2014, 10:42:11 AM
Great print. Now you need a fleet!
: Re: Blast from the past
: Tasker December 23, 2014, 11:28:55 PM
I don't know why but I look at it now and all I think is "Space Turtle"  lol

I still love it though. :-)
: Re: Blast from the past
: Hopeful December 24, 2014, 12:58:14 PM
I think I'm going to scrap the last 3 hours work and go back to having the front and rear bulges match, and then making a separate piece to push the front engines out - probably just a stubby cylindrical shape.

:-(

Rather than a stubby cylindrical shape how about a hemisphere like this:-

http://s54.photobucket.com/user/Barrington_Bond/media/GSP4%20Probe/NDVD_1942.jpg.html

This is from the GSP 4 satellite featured in '"The sound of silence" UFO episode.
: Re: Blast from the past
: Rick December 29, 2014, 04:24:50 PM
As long as you have the air intake on the engine pods, that aft pair will always be a dodgy proposition. What would it look like if you kept the forward engines as they are, but have the rear ones as a fixed (or limited traverse) pod with a closed off front and the air intake mounted on top of the fuselage, just in front of the rear bulge, so it looked like the air flow was being directed via conduit inside the bulge to the engines?